Now I know I don´t get a thing! Inuyasha, Naraku and Sess. Who cut whom or, most importantly, why would they?!  

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Is Inuyasha and Sesshoumaru still fighting, or are the two dogs fighting Naraku? I'm a little confused. If Sess is fighting Inuyasha, it doesn't look like they fight that long. I guess I have to wait and see the monologues. Interesting that Totosai shows up (closure?)!  

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Hmm, I think Sess goes into the mediou to stop Naraku from manipulating the tenseiga in order to destroy IY. he takes things back into his own hands. Sess is not complete moron. And for all we know he might just be fighting with IY to maybe force naraku out of hiding behind his tricks, or he knows that his sword will soon be absorbed by IY so he attacks in order for the blades to be able to connect. That is how IY got his other powers back from Sess. honestly, david, I too need monolouges from Sess and convos between Kagome and Rin group, and Totosai before i know exactly what's up.  

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I agree… though I can't help, but feel like the manga's rapidly coming to and end… don't you think? I mean, everybody is together now… hm-mmmhmmm…  

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Hmm, perhaps. We don't really know though. RT can still throw in a few more arcs before and/ or after the final battle arc, which will probably be long, I hope. So, we'll just have to see what RT does.  

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can't wait till tuesday to see the chapter!This one sounds like it's going to be exciting! can't wait! ^^  

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I think the end is around the corner but not quite there yet. Naraku still can't reform his body (go Sango!), and we should see an arc where he builds a new one. Not counting that I can see three more arcs before the final (long) arc begins. If RT holds to form she will have an arc where Inuyasha takes the Meido for a test drive. I imagine there will be an arc about Sesshoumaru, should he gain a sword from his own fang it would happen here. And I think there will be an arc about Miroku's worsening condition. I predict the final arc will be a long one, and will center around Kohaku and the final shard. Everything is set up so that Kohaku and (possibly) Miroku's life hang in the balance during the final arc.  

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Interesting. I wonder why Sessho still is attacking Inuyasha, when he flew into the Meidou to protect him. (Well, it seems that way.) I'm pretty sure RT will try to redeem Sessho by making him do something noble by the time this is over.  

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Only what I can say is "I really expect the next chapter!!!"   

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David

Hmm… interesting, Shouki… I'd be glad if you were right and there'd be a manga-series called "Sesshoumaru" ~daydreaming~  

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Only way i'd wanna see a manga seriers called Sesshomaru is if the guy becomes at least a little more talkative. Otherwise, as much as I love him I'm not sure how fun it would be to read "Sesshomaru" And I agree with those who say he's gonna now be in a better possition to build on his strength, but i'm not counting on him surpassing his father in the series, but there will be hints of it.  

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Shouki: I agree, I think Sesshoumaru will actually surpass his father after the end of the manga, unless he has a hand in Naraku's defeat, which RT could say is his moment. I do not believe that he will exit, at least not yet, and I do believe he will achieve the means by which to surpass his father, weather that is his own sword or something unexpected. It looks like the fight between brothers lasts just long enough for Inuyasha to shatter and absorb tenseiga, and knowing Sesshoumaru he could be dueling Inuyasha to achieve that end, the swords do need to make contact for Inuyasha to absorb tenseiga.  

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I think Sesshoumaru got more in mind than wanting Tessaiga for himself…I think it's more to it than that….I think he's understanding things more.  

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im lost

ill have to keep reading and im shure rumiko will put the peaces together later than it will all make scence.  

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I wonder how much Sesshoumaru is still thinking about Kagura and how he was going to "avenge" her. Or maybe that plot just dissapeared entirely? I got really happy when he got the Meidou attack because I thought he was actually going to do something for Kagura with it, but now tenseiga is broken and stuff. It's like Kagura has no significance to the plot at all now…
I kinda hope the manga is ending, but I really don't see where this whole thing is going.  

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I CAN'T wait until Tuesday to see/read the chapter!
I THINK the manga Is rapidly coming to end…'cause everybody is together now. If I make this manga – not T.Rumiko – i do some chapter and finishing this manga.
The ending story: Inu killing Naraku, Inu and Sess going to be kind brothers. It's my version.   

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Hmm, i'd actualy love to see Sess and Inu work together to get out of hell, then form some sort of an alliance. I know that some folks rather see IY do all the saving, but eh, I don't. Not that i'd mind who really does the saving stuff, I just want em to get the hell out of hell and wipe that smirk off of Naraku's floating head. And if RT wants IY to train his mediou, then it might even be better to have Sessmom open up some sort of a pathway from where IY and Sess are to her own palace. I think it would be intresting to see how IY reacts and interacts with Sessmom, but there's no gurantee whatsoever that that will ever happen. So, while I can hope and dream, I will not hold my breath.  

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Either way this arc just needs to end and go somewhereelse. Sessmom's palace for training, back with their own groups, regardless if they say teamed up or seperate to prepare for fianl battle, just anywhere but where it is right now. But yeah, I am looking forward to this chapter.  

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Looks like Sess is taking things into his own hands! For a while I was dreading reading the manga because Sess seems to have spiralled back in terms of character.  

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I'm really wondering how all this is going to end. I hope things turn out all right for Sesshie. Luv him too much.  

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Ah ha, we should have figured Naraku would pull something. Inu kills Sess, Sess makes his exit…none of us thought of Sess jumping into the meidou after Inuyasha! Where will Rumiko go next? Hopefully back to the rest of the gang, and hopefully the upcoming chapters will be worth the wait.

lol, Yin-Yang Heart, the image I got from your suggestion of Inuyasha and Sessmom together morphed into an alternative something which many of us kids with extended family may recognize.

Sessmom: So, you are the son of that other woman. Omigosh, your ears are soooo cute! *tweak* *tweak* *tweak* I love 'em, I love 'em… *wiggle* *wiggle* *wiggle*

Inuyasha: Grrr. Uh, evil brother, can you open that portal back to Hell for me again?

Sessmom: Sesshoumaru never lets me play with his ears like this. *tickle* *tickle* *tickle* His are not as soft and fuzzy as these, and he always was too sensitive.

Sesshoumaru: Mother!

Sessmom: With such furry ears, our little Inuyasha must have a cute furry tail too…let Auntie see, let Auntie see!

Inuyasha: Ack, get away from me lady! Stop tugging at my hakama. IRON REAVER!

Sesshoumaru: Home with my mother and brother. No longer do I desire Father's sword or its meidou, for this Sesshoumaru is in Hell already. How else could this get any more ridiculous?

Inu no Taisho: Honey, I'm home…  

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I really can't wait to read and see the scanslation. I wonder what Sesshoumaru's expression was when he realized that Naraku had started to interfere. Then again knowing him it probably was nothing on the side of much concern even though he might of been thinking it. Its funny to me how a lot of people who haven't been reading the manga or following the anime for very long seem to have such differing opinions on what Sess plans to do next. I guess because I have been a fan for so long I can read into his intent a little better. Granted I am not 100% correct all the time because his character can be really hard to read sometimes. I have had a few big shockers.

Though I would love to see Sess and IY become real brothers, I know that that is going to take a lot of time and effort on Sesshoumaru's part. He has to come a long way from truely wanting to kill IY at the beginning to just admitting that he has a half-demon brother who he is proud of! Then again RT can make this happen in a very subtle way just as she did with Kagura's death and Sesshoumaru responding that he knew it was her. I can definitely see a similarity if the brothers work together to escape the meidou. Besides, Sess has been there before and if anyone knows the way out it would be him! LOL   

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Haha, Dr. Sesslove! I'd pay through the nose to see that in the manga!  

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LOL. I agree. Seeing that type of interaction in the manga bwetween Sessmom,Inu, and Sess would be cool. But I'm guessing if we do see Sessmom again Inu's probably gonna be real uncomfortable around her and maybe vice versa. So, it would probably be more along the lines of an awkward silence and maybe some type of a conversation or training test or something. I doubt Sessmom is gonna act that forward or perky with IY, though I could be wrong. Maybe she will just to piss Sess off. god knows. Sess is one of the hardest to read characters, but the fact he goes into the mediou at naraku's interference dosn't shock me. Guess I'm gonna just shut up now. Till next comment^^  

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So far in this manga there isn't a load of character developement outside of battle so I agree that if anything happens to further these characters it is going to be now or very soon before the god-wars.

And that comment about sesshomaru surpassing his father…not gonna happen imo. Sesshomaru has been self-centered and stupid for a while, even if takahashi tries to make him into some kind of noble/martyr guy I won't be moved very much. The only way sesshomaru will surprise me is if he makes peace with his brother and helps kill naraku.
And personally I don't think this god-war should be ended by Inuyasha. The best end for this murderous dog naraku is by getting pimped into the wind tunnel. A loved one killed by trickery, an area brought into wars, many killed…the only truly moving thing I see as far as motivation to kill this guy is mirokus. An endless heritage curse for as long as he or his kin live…beast. Miroku better man up and take this guy out.
Also! great job translating this stuff! keep up the good work starks/patches!
Inuyasha for president baby!  

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Sorry Feyd, It's already been set up, Kagome will get the final blow. The only way to kill Naraku is by purifying the jewel shard and he along with it. When Kikyo died, she left this to Kagome. No matter what happens in the battle, the light at the center of the jewel will kill Naraku when it is hit by Kagomes arrow. That is the only way the battle can end.  

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I agree with David. Why else would destiny have brought Kagome to the past? It's not just for romance with Inuyasha but to bring this whole mess with Naraku to full circle.  

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I'd like to see Inuyasha save Sesshoumaru's life. Though he won't admit it, he has saved Inuyasha's life earlier in the Manga. After Inuyasha turned feral fighting Gatenmaru, it was implied that Sesshoumaru came to save Inuyasha from himself, knocking him out long enough for Kagome to undue the transfermation. He saved Inuyasha from Moryoumaru. He also saved Kagome, Sango, Miroku, and Shippou from Mukotsu. Now it is Inuyasha's turn to come to his brothers aid.  

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I also agree that kagome should get the final blow. If she dosn't or if it still dosn't kill Naraku, I wouldn't be shocked, but it's something that should happen. However,I'm not RT so I can't say anything for certian about if deffianitly happening.  

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I don't think Inuyasha needs to save Sess… Sess should save inuyasha. i doubt sess would let inuyasha save him anyway its out of character.. Sess doesn't need anyone…. and David only way to kill Naraku is by destroying his heart not purifying the jewel. and remember you make it seem that Kagome was meant to go to the past… it was all done by accident.. like her falling into the well and her breakin the scarded jewel.. it was all done by accident… naraku wouldn't even had appeared if Kagome never fell into the well, you make it seem it was all Naraku doin… and also imma say this again Sess should save Inuyasha. I want to see Sess save him and admit too it…. good day!! 1  

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I don't think Inuyasha needs to save Sess… Sess should save inuyasha. i doubt sess would let inuyasha save him anyway its out of character.. Sess doesn't need anyone…. and David only way to kill Naraku is by destroying his heart not purifying the jewel. and remember you make it seem that Kagome was meant to go to the past… it was all done by accident.. like her falling into the well and her breakin the scarded jewel.. it was all done by accident… naraku wouldn't even had appeared if Kagome never fell into the well, you make it seem it was all Naraku doin… and also imma say this again Sess should save Inuyasha. I want to see Sess save him and admit too it….  

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Re:3852

You've obviously never heard of destiny or fate.

Also the idea of Sess saving Inu doesn't set well with me. He should help Inu get out of this mess with Naraku — because frankly he put Inu in that mess with his "test" — but any other saving would be out of character for Inu, too. Sess has always looked down on Inu for being hanyou and supposedly less than his full-demon self. This story has been all about Inu proving his worth as a hanyou and accepting himself for who he is. Sess should learn that lesson, too. It would be very humbling to Sess' character to realize this, and humility is something Sess desperately needs.  

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Wow…that's all I have to say. I have recently read another one of Takahashi's pieces, ranma 1/2 and I can say that there are some serious parrallels between these two pieces…the last horse to cross the finish line…now I know why takahashi teases us so much…she is the master of the tease…
Anyways you peeps really think that Kagome will finish this epic struggle with her god-arrows? Then what is with miroku? If he sucks in naraku wouldnt that basically mean 1-kohaku can maybe live…2-no more shikon jewel…3-quarter demon puppy children?
I have pretty much made up my mind that the author is going to prolong these two very awkward relationships between inuyasha/kagome and miroku/sango until after the main conflict is resolved. Basically…a tease.
I have a serious question though and that is this: Are Kagome and Inuyasha meant for one another?
What I mean is that they have this kinda wierd brother/sister realtionship going on and let's be frank here: Inuyasha is a putz. I question this whole scheme…Inuyasha is what? 150 years old by now? He has been a child his whole life basically. He is about as suave as a garbage truck. Getting these two together will be quite a sight haha.  

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>>3852

Kagome did not fall down the well by accident. If it isn't evident by now after so many damn years of this manga that fate brought her to the past to heal the whole Inuyasha/Kikyou/Naraku thing and to save the future by aiming an arrow up Naraku's ass, then I seriously don't know what manga you are reading.

If you believe a little in reincarnation, you could say that "the powers that be" sent Kikyou's soul into the future to give her a second chance at redeeming herself. She redeems herself twice — once through Kagome's pure and honest soul/personality, and twice through her reanimated claypot self.

I'm a little in love with the whole concept behind reincarnation and redeeming one's self, which is another reason I love this manga. If you delved into the death of Kikyou a little more, you could almost overhear her asking for another chance and perhaps the life she'd always wished for herself. Thus, Kagome. I'm not saying that they are entirely the same because Rumiko has frequently denied that idea, and they shouldn't be the same. One could say that Kagome is a better concept of Kikyou, if Kikyou hadn't been held down by her duties guarding the Shikon no Tama. Kagome fully accepts Inuyasha as he is, faults and all, whereas Kikyou couldn't quite do that. Kagome is honest about her less-than-perfect feelings, whereas Kikyou fought to keep impure thoughts from entering her mind and heart. Kagome is a more human concept of Kikyou.

Eh, sorry for the ramble. I tend to philosophize a little too much with the spiritual aspect of this manga. (^.^)U  

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I don't buy that kikyo wasn't human. She most certainly fell in love with inuyasha, otherwise narakus trick wouldnt have worked. They were both in love but insecure in each other's love, therfore trickery and the damnation of Inuyasha gettin stuck on that tree for 50 years.
Kagome is a younger, less noble version of Kikyo. Kikyo, in my honest opinion, had an allure all her own. There was something about that mysteriousness and unattainability that attracted Inuyasha. Kagome is a dumbed-down version of the priestess. Another thing that sepparates them is their level of maturity.
My main gripe with this comic is that the most impressive characters seem to get pimped an awful lot. Kikyo and sesshomaru are in my honest opinion the most alluring and sound characters in this comic yet they always are getting the short end of the stick…dang kikyo even got murdered…twice!
other than Kikyo and Sesshomaru there really isn't an enormous population of serious, interesting characters. The villains were at one point very deep but the reccurence of the same villainous themes gets kinda washed out by narakus constant reliable hijinks. The protagonists are mostly immature and when Takahashi forces them into serious situations they rarely handle it with ease.
I believe that Takahashi is trapped in her previous mode of writing: tease-ridden, teenage entertainment. For all the serious happenings that take place in this comic the level of seriousness presented in the characters is feeble.
On the other hand, Takahashis mix of playful humor and excellent battle scenes make this comic…teh..pimpzorz!
Inuyasha for president baby!  

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3855: Yeah IY and Kag are like brother and sister. Especially when they hug and blush around each other and outright admit romantic feelings as well as making deeply romantic promises. Even more so when he almost kisses her and says he doesn't want to break up with her and they get infuriatingly jealous. Seriously. Eww. Is it really that hard to imagine them officially hooking up? They've pretty much already done it. IY's not as bad as you're saying he is. He's stunted emotionally, but he's not so romantically horrible. The story's about them, of course they're meant for each other.

Also, he is NOT 150 in the manga.

And Miroku should be the one to take out Naraku? If we're going by 'grudges,' it should be Sango, Kohaku, and Kouga. Miroku's life sucks because of Naraku, but really it pales in comparison to what's been done to those three.  

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Kikyou was certainly human, but she's far far from being more mature than Kagome and Kagome is far from dumbed-down. Kagome (and InuYasha), if anything- showed resurrected!Kikyou true maturity and nobility so she could learn it herself.  

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Hey haro um how do you know Inuyasha isn't 150? I'm just curious, because I don't remember Inuyasha's age (or anyones age) being announced officaly.
If you know Inuyasha's age can you tell me where you found it?
If you can thanks ^^  

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Wow…just wow

Kagome and Inuyasha pale in comparison to Kikyo when it comes to maturity. Kagome is nothing more than your generic, run-of-the-mill, teenage girl. She's lived an average life (up until the Fuedal Era) in a safe world and never had any of the struggles Inuyasha, Kikyo, Miroku, or Sango has. Kikyo was raised during hard times and forced to grow up and live as a priestess. She had to deny herself for the well-being of others, she traveled, forced all impure thoughts away from herself, was hated by demons and looked at differently by humans alike. Not only that, but her only chance at true happiness was taken away from her through the jealousy of one she had taken care of out of compassion. She gets killed, dies in hatred, and then is resurrected only to find that the one man she loved has run off with her reincarnation. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that her development humiliate's Kagome's in comparison, let's see shall we? She walked the earth living on hatred alone, contemplating the depths and values of human life, torn between the world of the living and the dead, not sure if it was right for her to live the life that had been taken from her just because she was a rotten corpse. Kikyo then chose her own destiny, found happiness in helping others, decided to fight against Naraku on her own, all while carrying the heavy burden of not being one of the living.

Kagome has nothing on that. So yeah, she IS the dumbed-down version of Kikyo. Not in a bad way, just not as deep and complex. She has matured, but definitely not to Kikyo's level. Kikyo is a woman and Kagome is a girl on that path to womanhood. If anything, the way she and Inuyasha act in regards to their feelings and emotions is nothing more than plain immaturity, but is serves a comical purpose. Kagome handles her feelings as a teenage girl would (getting jealous, emotional outbursts,crying), whereas Kikyo…rarely shows any emotion, she has such a mysterious and stoic exspression.

Kagome couldn't even imagine what resurrected Kikyo must have gone through, so of course she couldn't fully grasp that situation and neither could Inuysha.  

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Anonymous: RT published a guide to the manga called Inuyasha Okuki Kaiden. In it she provides the ages of the primary characters. At the Inuyasha Companion website it quotes them. Inuyasha is listed as having the maturity of a 15 year old. Remember he did not mature while he was sealed, so he is fifty years behind where he should be emotionally. His chronological age is not provided, at least on this website, and the guide book has not been translated into English (as far as I know).  

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Anonymous: Because it's an anime-only age, and that's where it's being pulled from. There's no indication of such a heavily inflated age anywhere but there. The movie's back story contradicting Rumiko's so heavily makes it impossible to tie the anime age to the manga. Anime IY has a different background completely, so that alone makes the age false.

InuYasha – 15 (I would theorize this is sixty-five- fifteen+fifty years on tree. IY is not 'full grown,' and a hanyou definitely ages at a normal rate at least through childhood from what we've seen. Probably if the aging is different for hanyou [which we don't know either way], it remains the same through adulthood. It really doesn't make sense any other way.)
Kagome: 15
Miroku: 18
Sango: 16
Shippou: 7
Kohaku: 11 (At the time of his first death)
Naraku: 23 (I imagine this was Prince Kagewaki's age)
Kagura: 17 (Of course this is a mindset, as she's less than a year old.)
Kikyou: 18 (At the time of her first death)
Kouga: 15 (I found this one hard to believe, even taking the idea that it may be his mental age into consideration. He seems at least a few years older than IY.)
Sesshoumaru: 19 (Sess has to be at least sixty-nine though.)

Pretty young cast…  

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Karin: Maturity doesn't mean 'how much sorrow you've been through and how little emotion you show.' Not showing emotion can actually easily be a sign of immaturity, and in Kikyou's case at times it was. Sorry. I think you can list off every bad thing that has happened to Kikyou. That does not make her more mature. Kagome not having a crappy life doesn't automatically make her a less mature person. That's not how it works.

Kagome, not developed? She is the only female character who has defeated her fatal flaw- that of her insecurity. Sango is working towards it. Kikyou, in the end, never overcame her pride and overconfidence, her two greatest flaws. If you look at Kagome's development, purely from what she's seen- it's outstanding. The problem is that people figure in everything that happens that Kagome has no idea of and expect Kagome to know these things. Regarding Kikyou for example, it had only been maybe six months since the woman tried to kill her and since then she'd spoke condescendingly and devalued her at more than one point. But people say 'well Kikyou's changed, Kagome should know that.' No she shouldn't. She hadn't been shown it. Kagome's been more selfless than any other character in the cast, and her emotional journey has been very deep.

And if Kikyou were more deep and complex, she'd be the main female. Simple as that. Kikyou is mysterious. Her not showing us all her motivations and going back and forth on decisions just makes her that, it doesn't make her deep. She's not a simple character by any means, but she's not as deep and complex as the core cast. Of course Kagome has received more development. It's pretty "O.o" that someone would propose that she hasn't.

I find it ironic that people harp on Kagome & InuYasha's relationship for immaturity, yet are okay with Miroku and Sango's despite it's at times similar issues. Sango has major trust issues, but for some reason her violence and attitude is considered funny and 'Miroku deserves it.' I'm okay with it, but I'm also okay with Kagome. I'm not as okay with Kikyou's, because it goes beyond petty arguments and at times into cruelty. But nonetheless. And more so, that they're okay with InuYasha and Kikyou's, despite it failing due to their own shortcomings in lack of trust in each other and how they in a sense 'used' each other.  

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Uh, I'd like it to show on the record that I didn't say that Kikyou isn't human. That's not what I meant at all. I'll try to put it another way. Her duties as a miko and especially her duties as the guardian of the Shikon no Tama put her at a distance (I won't say she's above or below here because I don't want to cause a humongous argument, as it seems I did already) from those around her. Her emotions put her at a distance. Yes, this has to be this way because of whom she is; no, it doesn't make her better or worse than anyone else.

Really, Kikyou is a poor soul who had some really tragic crap thrown her way (and redeemed herself in the end), and Kagome is a poor soul who's been thrust into so much more than just your average teenage years, and she's doing the best job she knows how to survive both in the past and the present.

*is sorry for inducing some sort of panic and arguing on here*  

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Hm, after reading the post about Kikyou, I'm left wondering…did we suddenly attract people from that IY fansite that tells you that the whole anime revolves around Kikyou?

/is not a Kikyou-basher in any way
//loves Kikyou
///is merely joking about that attracting thing…but not the website, unfortunately *sticks tongue out at Haro for introducing her to that horrible website a long time ago*   

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KagomeKagome: I never got the impression you were saying she wasn't human.

It takes an immense amount of strength and maturity to accept your emotions- positive and negative and become the stronger because of that. Kagome realized her flaws and her strengths and took rein of her imperfections, overcoming them. Never will Kagome stop being emotional, and I don't think she would be were she raised in Kikyou's place either. That's not who she is, and she's the stronger for it. This is a special kind of maturity. Quelling your emotions is a way to avoid doing what Kagome has done- accepted and embraced them- and thus become more mature. Emotion is a strength, and a sign of maturity. But that aside, she does not cry that often, far less than a 'generic teenage girl.' She's cried only when someone died, she thought they died, when she realized she loved InuYasha, and one tear in the Kao arc and when she returned home the first time. And it would be brave to comment on Kagome's jealousy and outbursts and then praise Kikyou's maturity, because her jealousy was not just immature- it was dangerous at times, and it did show even in her death arc.  

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edit:

KagomeKagome: I had to share that website. It was bizarre. XD

I'm also not a Kikyou basher. I don't bash characters. However, I do think that Kagome is absolutely intended by the author to be the more 'mature' of the two, despite Kikyou being a grown woman. I believe it to be an intentional contrast, similar to Sesshoumaru and InuYasha. While Kagome is the emotional 'girl' as opposed to Kikyou's stoic 'woman,' she's shown a level of maturity, growth, and inner strength Kikyou could not achieve. Same goes- while InuYasha is the reckless boy hanyou and Sesshoumaru the calm grown taiyoukai, IY has shown a level of maturity, adversity, and compassion Sess cannot achieve.  

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I see both arguments about the maturity levels of Kikyo and Kagome as interesting and correct in many ways on both sides. I have to admit when I was looking at some of the projected ages/mind set age I wasn't too shocked. I must admit at first I didn't really see what Kikyo saw in Inuyasha. Their maturity levels did not seem to match. I actually would have expected her projected age to be at least that of Sesshoumaru's or even a little older. Her job of protecting the Shikon no Tama must have really aged her beyond her years! When I first started watching the anime, which I know is a little different than the manga, I thought that Kikyo was more of the motherly type. She truely did seem to talk to Inuyasha, at times, as if she was more of a mother figure. I am not trying to create some twisted relationship because their love was already defined, I'm just bringing up what I saw. It might have benefited Kikyo a little more to have a softer voice
I guess because I started with the anime and then switched over to the manga here recently, I can't help but put the American voices with the dialogue in the manga. I love trying to read Jaken's parts with the anime voice. Try it, it will make you laugh so much harder at his already comical parts (D LOL.  

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'I love trying to read Jaken’s parts with the anime voice. Try it, it will make you laugh so much harder at his already comical parts'
I know exactly what your talking about NewPuppylove.
And personally I liked Jaken's dubbed voice much better than the oringal. The oringal was so deep and dark sounding!
Anyway thanks Haro and David for putting the ages up ^^
Although somewhere I heard sesshoumaru and Inuyasha were 96 years apart. Did anyone else hear the rumor as well?  

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Anonymous: I don't know where you heard it, but it's not true. The above posted is what we have as far as ages go from Takahashi. The only other comment was in an interview *many* years ago before the character book was released, she said 15-17 for InuYasha himself. However, she clarified her official choice by lowering it to just plain fifteen in the character book, which makes far more sense imho. Anything else you hear is fanmade rumors.

Jaken is one of my least favorite dub voices. It's kind of like nails on a chalkboard. *hides* I'm actually a big proponent of dubs (Funimation ftw) and think many anime fans treat them unfairly, but I really can't speak positive of any major character voices in the dub- outside Naraku, who is perfect. It is one of the few modern dubs I would call 'bad.' Have you seen any later episodes with Jaken's Japanese voice? He's dark and menacing at first because that's how he was presented in the beginning as a character, but later on when Jaken becomes comedic he's fabulous. He's hilarious and his seiyuu added all kinds of wonderful adlibs. A lot of Jaken's funniest lines in the anime were not in the script, but something his seiyuu added in on the spot. I would not call his voice deep even at the beginning though.  

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>>3868

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say (and you put it more eloquently). This is what I was implying with my talk on reincarnation. I know that someone's going to hate where I'm going with this (because it'll look like I'm bashing Kikyou), but this goes in accordance with the religion. In order to achieve some sort of enlightenment, the mind/soul/heart must mature, and that's what Kagome is. This is why I frown at people who imply that Kikyou got the short end of the stick. Yes, she had a horrible life thrust upon her, but her death was caused by her own lack of trust. I won't go as far as to say that she had a lack of trust in someone she claimed to love because I think her "love" for Inuyasha was, at best, a need for normalcy and companionship. She wanted what others her age had, and there's nothing wrong with that, but she ended up dragging Inuyasha into it. She was foolish and immature. However, I understand why she did what she did, so I'm not damning her to a torturous afterlife in Naraka. (^_^U)

No matter how you slice it or dice it, Kagome is the more mature of the two…even if it doesn't always appear that way (a la sitting Inuyasha until he's a crater).  

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Re: 3875

I totally, totally disagree. The IY dub is one of the better dubs out there. Richard Ian Cox does a good job as Inuyasha, and Kirby Morrow is excellent as Miroku (he's the best on this dub IMO). David Kaye is not bad as Sesshoumaru either. I don't like Jaken, but I don't like him as a character anyway, so he could sound like a frog for all I care. If you think this dub is bad, then you haven't heard bad. If you are going to listen to a dub, then you have to listen to it for its own merits and not compare it to the original. No one is going to sound exactly like Kappei Yamaguchi, nor should one try to. The voice actor's job is to act out a character, not to imitate a Japanese seiyu. At least the voice actors for IY did a good job bringing the story to life and were appropriate for the characters.  

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In the 3rd movie myoga-jiji told the group that inu's father died 200 years ago, on the day inu was born. Minus the 50 years on the tree you really end up with 150 years.

I think kagome will give the finishing blow. Just think about all the fights our group has gotten into, kagome almost always fires an arrow and finishes it off. But only after the youkai has already been weakened bij tetsusaiga and the rest of the group.

Miroku dies… don't we just love tragedy… In a lot of japanese movies the main characters die, sometimes they all die. But Miroku' character loses its charm if he is cured, for the story its better if he died, maybe getting sango (or any other female) pregnant before he does.  

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And once again, the movie is contradictory to the manga AND even the anime, and above all else, it's considered filler, like the filler episodes, so you can't go by what is said in the movie. Rumiko had nothing to do with it.

Can we all either agree that this is so or just admit that we understand this now? To avoid future confusion and annoyance? XP  

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I hope that you guys didn't take my reply as an accusation of "Kikyo-bashing" because it wasn't, sorry if anything other was implied. I actually don't see you all as bashing Kikyo at all, you seem to be more of the eloquent fans that we never see.

While I can see you wonderful points, I believe that you missed mine. Kagome never suffered through any of the trials that Kikyo had to, and they were raised in different time periods and had completely different lives, that's why the seems to be a higher maturity level in Kikyo from my point of view. It's like comparing a child raised in Southern African war times and one from a middle-classed family in the United States. Though, Kagome has been shown able to handle her emotions, what did she go through compared to Kikyo? She's alive, she has friends, she has Inuyasha, and she can return to her time whenever she pleases (to Inuyasha's dismay). I can see that Kagome has accepted her emotions and jealous outbursts as being human, but that's no more of a revalation than choosing to live even though you're not supposed to be in this world and accepting it, that goes beyond just being human and human emotions. That's something that Kagome never had to endure, which is why I'm not too impressed by her or her development.

Kikyo's death really wasn't caused by her lack of trust if you look at it closely. She agreed to give Inuyasha the sacred jewel (check). He requested to have it earlier, and Kikyo agreed seeing as he was known for being impatient (check). She came to the spot they had agreed and was fataly wounded (check). I don't see her at fault anywhere here. Her insecurities are what pinned Inuyasha to the tree not her death, if anything her death was caused by Inuyasha when she let down her guard after falling in love with him.

I won't say that she wasn't being foolish and Immature, I agree in fact, but as we all have said those emotions were perfectly human, and Kikyo gets a pass since she was raised to stifle these emotions, but let's not go there.

I believe that Takahashi-sama intended for Kikyo to be the more mature of the two, despite her predicament. She would help Kagome in her ways of becoming a better priestess, learning to deal with the harsh Fuedal times, even lending a hand at times when Kagome's lack of skill as a priestess or dilemma couldn't handle a situation. Whereas Kagome (along with Inuyasha) helped Kikyo to find peace, and lend a hand when Kikyo's lack of power as a corpse couldn't quail a situation. Kikyo's just exhibits more control and cool in a situation than Kagome ever could, but that's due to usually fighting on her own when Kagome has friends. Kagome is compassionate, but at times I think that she forgets just where she is, this is Fuedal times, not Tokyo times, so sometimes the compassion just doesn't cut it, it's nice, but you have to be a bit cruel at times. Kikyo appears to understand this and is capable of surviving on her own, whereas Kagome just doesn't have the strength, though she is strong, to be able to handle certain things that Kikyo otherwise would.

It takes an even more immense amount of strength to survive hell, be able to accept your death, but choose live, overcome the hatred that is your only emotion and stepped through the point of time you were caught in at death. It takes vasts more maturity and strength to walk the earth along once agains, and take up the task of destroying an otherwise frightening demon that not only ended your live, but showed up to taunt you about it and lusts for you. All while holding the same expression most of the time and keeping your guard up. Especially when you were raised to think and do otherwise, in a world full of demons, evil priestesses, bandits, superstition, and other spirits.

Kagome can go home and stay whenever she wants, she's alive and has friends. Kikyo has no way out, other than death (which happened, but she was finally freed).

Haro: I see what you mean, but resurrected Kikyo was far from being in the best state of mind. How would you react if you were brought back from the dead in a clay body, found that the man you loved that betrayed you (supposedly) has ran away with your reincarnated self, and your death could have been avoided? Yeah, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Think of all the confusion and conflicted emotions she had to overcome. As a matter of fact, Kikyo ceased her venture of trying to take Inuyasha to hell once she found out about Naraku, but the only remaining part of soul was hatred. Kagome had everything she need to live a good life and survive her emotions, Inuyasha, her friends, and family were always there to give her a hand. Kikyo had to overcome all of this own her own, overcome her hatred that was the only thing keeping her alive, in some way give up on Inuyasha because life and death could not be together, and spend the life that she never got to live trying to destroy Naraku. When compared to that, Kagome overcoming her emotions is little to be impressed with. Kagome is just a young girl (too generic for my tastes) thrust into a world far from her own, but she's done pretty well so far, but was she ever really alone? She's alive, she can enjoy life, she got Inuyasha, friends, and a home. So no matter how you put is, Kikyo and Kagome just are worlds apart maturity-wise in my eyes. Kagome is just a little girl to me. So let's agree to disagree, I see that as the best option.

And on Inuyasha's behalf, he's not as bad as people seem to think. Sure he can immature and annoying at times, but I'm pretty sure that there was more beyond the surface that Kikyo saw in him. They both suffered from being torn between what they were and supposed to be, so I believe that it was their pain that attracted them to each other, their rage and anger, so it was a dangerous love from the start. He appears to act quite level-headed (to some extent) and mature around her.  

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I could be wrong, but I'm positive that Inuyasha is suppose to be 200 years old. the reason being if you watch the 3rd movie Totosai explains about the whole thing about Inu and Sesshes dad dieing and leaving the swords.He said that it was 200 hundreded years ago and Inuyasha was born the day his father died.  

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Ok for the last time….THE THIRD MOVIE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MANGA. It is filler, and is not what happened in the manga. The ages by the author herself were posted earlier, so please go by those ages and not the mess that was created by the third movie.

P.S. The third movie was pretty good btw but it really caused a huge confusion with the ages of Inu, Sess, etc.  

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KagomeKagome: In total agreement. You nailed it.

Tiger: I certainly know bad dubs. I've been into anime for almost ten years, have seen at least one hundred dubs, and I've seen my fair share of absolutely horrendous dubs and absolutely brilliant ones. I am not asking the cast to match up to the Japanese voices at all. What I want is voices that work for the characters, and generally theirs don't. InuYasha is not some punk-assed kid haughty that sounds like an older Ash Ketchum, Kagome is not some ditzy valley girl (the worst voice). Kirby Morrow is not that bad, but he has trouble emoting in his role and so falls short of most modern dubs in quality. Actually, most of the cast seems to have trouble handling deep emotion. Ocean Group is easily the poorest dubbing studio out there, and IY is their sloppiest job. I do not feel they are at all appropriate for their characters, so yes I am judging it on its own merits. I did say I was a proponent of dubs, which means I generally support them. Find a modern dub (released in the past five years) for me that's worse than Inuyasha. Maybe One Piece, but that's it. But even that's going to get an awesome dub now that Funimation has it.

Karin: I didn't miss your point at all. I said that just because someone's been through a lot of tragedy, does not make them more mature in direct response to your point. As I said, you can list off all the horrible things Kikyou's been through and it really doesn't matter. That does not maturity make, and I don't think your analogy about the South African and Middle-Class kid holds water. Maturity can be shaped by hardship, but it can also cause immaturity. That aside, you act as if Kagome's had the most perfect life in the world. You do not know that. We know almost nothing of her backstory. At the very least, her father seems to be dead. Even if she had, the fact that she is able to go from that 'perfect life' to this emotionally and physically devastating life in the sengoku jidai so gracefully shows far more strength than someone who is 'jaded' by past experience doing it.

On the lack of trust thing. There's a million and one ways Kikyou and InuYasha could have avoided the betrayal, but it all comes down to trusting one another. It is canon that is was because of their lack of trust, remarked upon by more than one character. Kikyou could have easily sensed by youki that it was not InuYasha. Naraku couldn't mask his youki until the fuyouheki arc. However, she did not doubt the situation for a second. She did not trust him, at all. Also, what's the scene where IY asks to have it earlier? Is that in the spring special? It's definitely not in the manga. Actually Kikyou was not fatally wounded, and would have lived had she not sealed InuYasha/exerted so much energy chasing him. Naraku was trying to break them up, not kill her. His plan went awry when Kikyou expelled the last of her powers on InuYasha and died. IY is certainly at fault here as well, as much as Kikyou. However, it's not 'his fault.'

It is easy to fight for revenge, as Kikyou is. There is no easier purpose than fighting on revenge and anger.

Kikyou accepted her life? Did she have a choice? I would disagree and say that Kikyou did not handle her resurrection in the most mature of manners, far from it. Her choice of 'living' was wrong. She was living on the souls of young girls, and instead of ending her false life and passing on her duty to Kagome much earlier on- she drew it out in order to achieve her revenge. She HAD to be the one that defeated Naraku, and she reiterated at more than one point. How many young girl's souls suffered so she could work towards revenge against Naraku? Were she truly mature, would she not have put aside her unjustified negative feelings for Kagome and shown her what she needs to do and ended her life, instead of taking matters into her own hands in a way that stresses her greatest flaw- overconfidence and a superiority complex.

I have explained already that not showing emotion is not a strength. I should clarify in saying that for Kikyou, perhaps showing emotion was a weakness. Fifty years ago when she fell in love, her powers weakened. For Kagome emotion is a strength, and her powers strengthen the more she loves. As emotion is an unavoidable aspect of humanity, what's the more mature idea- that emotion makes you weak and thus you are weakened, or that emotion is something you can use to make yourself stronger?

How would I react if I were brought to life? I certainly don't think I'd go and try to murder my completely innocent reincarnation, nor would I try to drag my ex to hell. She did not try to take InuYasha to hell again after she found about Naraku, but she DID claim his life as hers which is the same thing through around volume sixteen. While I'd probably be an angstbucket about it, I wouldn't be a vengeful one. I think there's not much that can explain away her early actions. The point is that Kagome did overcome her emotions. Kikyou denied and quelled them. That alone makes her less mature.

Kikyou never really helps Kagome except during the last arc, and even that was in a sense to help herself. I suppose you could construe the Inu no Taishou's grave battle with the arrow as helping Kagome, but that's not really what happened. Kikyou couldn't go so she sent Kagome with her arrow in her stead. And she doesn't 'lend a hand when Kagome's miko powers aren't enough,' especially since she's alluded that Kagome is more powerful than her. Kikyou's battle contribution in the series is pretty minimal, and she never pops up in a battle to help that Kagome's being used heavily in.

Kagome handles this world of bandits, youkai, etc despite having never experienced it. She is not jaded to it like Kikyou, and thus the strength she exhibits is extremely impressive. The girl never freaks out, except over worms apparently. No Kagome does NOT have to be a 'bit cruel' at times, and she's all the more mature for never being vindictive towards Kikyou like Kikyou was her. Even if she indeed feel negative feelings towards her, she never took them out on Kikyou. One of the prime points of the series is total compassion and yes that does cut it. There is no excuse for cruelty.

By ratio of appearance Kikyou needed rescuing more than Kagome, and her overconfidence almost brought her to her death more than once so her ability to survive is debatable. So she can survive on her own? Kagome doesn't know the time well enough to do that. That has nothing to do with maturity. What has Kikyou handled that Kagome couldn't?

Yes, Kagome has been alone. In fact she dealt with her entire emotional catharsis alone. Never once did another person 'give her a hand' in regards to it. And when it culiminated on Mt. Asuza, she was never more alone than there. Kikyou is alone because she refuses to work with others. Because she viewed herself as THE person who must take down Naraku. HER holy mission. This goes against the series theme of the strength of teamwork and friendship.

And if you see Kagome as a generic schoolgirl I think you haven't read/watched that much anime/manga with world traveling females. Kagome's so delightfully different from the angsty, blushy, clumsy, does he like me??, archetype in most of those and it's absolutely refreshing. And I simply don't understand how anyone could call her character (especially in the manga, mostly there actually) generic. Takahashi writes the toughest shounen lead females.

IY's not himself around Kikyou. Even fifty years ago, he only shows her half of himself. The other half, the brash, immature, and sometimes goofy boy- heck anything remotely childish about him, is completely hidden. No one wants a relationship where they can't be themselves.  

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Once again, Kel and I are on the same page.

Also, it appears the my previous plea about the 3rd movie and the age things went unnoticed by someone.

To reiterate: the movie is contradictory to the manga AND even the anime, and above all else, it’s considered filler, like the filler episodes, so you can’t go by what is said in the movie. Rumiko had nothing to do with it.

Can we all either agree that this is so or just admit that we understand this now? To avoid future confusion and annoyance?

This goes for all of the movies, by the way. Especially — BLECH! — the fourth movie.  

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Haha, speaking of Kirby Morrow…I'm sure he had plenty of practice with that whole "trouble emoting in his role" thing beforehand. Ever heard him as Scott Summers/Cyclops on X-Men: Evolution? XD

I can't blame Kirby, however, because Scott Summers — especially that version of Scott — comes off as an emotionless prick.  

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I think Karin made a lot of good points. We don't know Kagomes "complete" backstory, but from what we know her life has been much much easier. People's behaviors are largely molded by experiences…its easy to sit back and say that Kikyo could have done this or should have "ideally" acted this way. However for what she's been through, I think it shows a lot of maturity that she seemed to for the most part remain calm and collective…albeit a little depressed when many would have lost all ability to function rationally. It had to have been incredibly hard for her being all alone.
I really don't see how Kagome has shown that much maturity, or is really that special. Sure she has a likeable personality, cheerful and full of pep…and of course she would be more fun at parties. However she had a fairly comfortable upbringing…loving mom, brother, crazy grandfather…good friends, etc. I won't go into a long comparison. Quite a few girls could fill her shoes (granted that they are talented in archery).  

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Re:3885

So just because you've been "into anime almost ten years" that makes you the one-person authority on what's a good dub or a bad dub? It's all your opinion. I'm just stating I disagree with you, and consensus on sites I've been to around the web is with me. Most people don't think of it as one of the worst out there. Perhaps more people prefer the Japanese version, but many people find the English dub enjoyable, too. The Ocean Group isn't a pre-established group of voice actors, either; they do casting and hire voice talent. Different actors do work for them at different times, and actors who work for them also work for other groups. For example, Scott McNeil, who voiced Koga, also voiced Hoenheim in FMA, produced by guess who … Funimation. The actors who did the IY dub have received praise for other series and are overall well-respected. The IY dub may not be as classic as Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, or even the FMA dub, but it's not bad by most people's standards and escapes ill attention, especially in comparison to truly bad dubs like One Piece. (Oh, and for another "modern" dub that's not as good as IY, try Prince of Tennis.)  

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A brief history on the Higurashi family as told by this novel:

After Papa died because of an accident many years before, Kagome, along with her mother and younger brother Souta moved into Papa's parents' home, which was the residence on the shrine property. Jii-chan, who was the shrine's caretaker, was alone after his wife passed away.
The novel mentioned in the above statement is a novelization written by RT which gives a tiny bit of Info on Kagome's background.
This information was found from ear tweak
http://www.ear-tweak.com/specials/shousetsu.htm
and just my personal opinion I actually liked the dubbed Inuyasha better than the subbed one. Their voices just 'fit' better for me.  

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Well I'm not really going to comment that much on the Kikyo/Kagome argument but I have to comment on some points you made Haro.

Ok so you say Kikyo works alone, and would rather it that way than work with others. Well the only other people she could work with is Inuyasha's group. I doubt she'd want to work closely with a group in which her reincarnation is apart of. Not to mention, her reincarnation and Inuyasha have a thing going on. Kagome technically has Inuyasha. If Kikyo were alive, she and Inuyasha could've been together. It would be very awkward for Kikyo to travel with the group for that main reason. This is why Kikyo prefers to travel alone, so that her presence doesn't build tension within the group. Not only that, but Kikyo felt it was HER duty to rid the world of Naraku until see saw Kagome was perfectly capable to take on that mission.

And the point about stealing dead souls….well she's doing it for a good cause, which is to defeat Naraku. While her stealing souls is a wrong action, it's only for the greater good in order to eliminate Naraku and his presence from the world. I'm sure now that Kikyo's dead those souls can go to wherever they were meant to go.  

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To Haro: Hate to disappoint you but not all generic school girls are the 'angsty, blushy, clumsy, does he like me??' type. They just aren't. Kagome is a normal school girl. And I mean NORMAL. The reason she is so popular with Inuyasha fans is because they could relate to her and see her doing what they themselves will do in a situation. Yes she might have a bit harder life than normal, but being in the feudal era isn't a toil for her. Like it has been pointed out before, she does have friends and what's more, she can go home anytime! Inuyasha even forced her to go home once, and she only came back of her won accord.
About her being mature, I don't think she has more maturity than the average high-school girl. The things she does, like comforting others when they are sad, are not abilities that are alien to normal girls.
And as for being brave and fighting, she might be braver than average, but you can see she is not very brave compared to the other chars. She doesn't react as well to a situation. What I'm trying to say is, she isn't very mature in many ways. I really don't know where you get the idea she has matured very significantly. She can fight, she helps people, and she can…..I cant even think of what else to say. She isn't overly mature for a high school girl.

-And yes, you're right, just having gone through harder times in your life doesn't make you more mature. It's how you deal with those hard times, and the experience you gain from dealing with them, that makes you mature. That's why adults tend to be more mature than kids(though not all of them). They have seen more of life, and they have dealt with things, that kids haven't.
Kikyo has been through more than Kagome has. While she may not have made the best decisions at times, she has experienced more and dealt with more. After she was resurrected, she tried to kill inuyasha because she was confused. And why not? To her, he was teh one who tricked her, destroyed the village she had been protecting for her whole life, and tried to kill her. Look at it her way. After all that, it seemed to her that he had merely proceeded calmly with his life and gotten hooked up with another girl! After learning the truth, though, she left him alson, since she didn't want to feel more hurt at the loss of their love. And if you haven't realized, she has acted selflessly. MANY times. It was most noticeable one was when she died whole saving Koga. She even saved Miroku's life once, if you haven't noticed. Kikyo may not have been the greatest character at every possible moment, but the strength she showed in letting go of her jealousy and resentment at the end of the series is what makes her mature, in her own way.  

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Why, yes! My hama no reiryoku powarz have awakened just recently so I can totally relate to normal schoolgirl Kagome, OMGWTF!!! XD

/been spending way too much time on Fark.com lately; sorry for my sarcastic sense of humor  

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KagomeKagome: ITA. And Trowa from Gundam Wing and Rey from Gundam Seed Destiny- both roles where his difficulties emoting work for the character. Miroku is not one them.

Tiger: That's not what I meant at all. I only meant to illustrate that I had seen a lot of dubs, since you seemed to insinuate that I did not know what a truly bad dub was and haven't seen one, and that I'm not judging this dub unfairly. In my opinion the IY dub is bad. Please don't misconstrue my statements as my opinion being the end all. I do not think the general consensus is with you necessarily though, as it seems there's a slight bit majority more who dislike the dub. For the record, Scott Mcneil is a fabulous voice actor and I have a lot of respect for him. He is one of Ocean Group's true talents and I was extremely happy to see him lent to Funimation. However, actually Funimation individually got a hold of Scott because Scott really wanted to work on the series. Because of FMA's popularity, a lot of voice actors outside Funimation's pool of talent wanted to work on the series. Generally though, Ocean Group is an established group and they don't lend out their voice actors nor bring in voice actors from elsewhere. He did a wonderful job on Hoenheim. However, I do not like his Kouga. It's like they told him to sound just like dub Ryouga, because he does sound just like dub Ryouga. And despite them both being comedic love rivals, that voice does not work for Kouga imho. Although the Prince of Tennis dub is very poor, I don't agree it's worse than IY.

Anonymous: Kikyou DID lose all ability to function rationally upon her resurrection. She didn't have to be alone. She chose to be. Only a good eight volumes later did she at all come down to earth again. Kaede always had the right idea, perhaps the most correct of anyone in the series. Even though she loved her sister, she reiterated again and again that Kikyou needed to let go and end this false life. Once again, Kikyou's troubles aren't really relevant, especially considering her handling of them shows her lack of maturity. Kagome's handled what's been thrown her way in a more mature way than Kikyou. Kikyou quelching her emotions as I said more than once, shows the oppossite of maturity.

I also don't get how Kagome is full of 'pep.' She's generally pretty upbeat, but I'd never use the word perky to describe her. Far from it. I don't even really see how she'd be 'fun at parties.' She's not exactly the bringer of excitement when amongst her school friends. If anything her being so down to earth makes her a bit less likely to fall into that role. She is extremely far from being someone that would end up a social butterfly, unless you're reading bad fanfics. Kagome is special. No other fifteen year old girl could handle this as well as she does. The girls got an extreme amount of guts, a will of steel, and an emotional maturity that a lot of grown adults never achieve. Most girls would freak out and break down, if put in her situation. In fact, most female characters in manga in her situation- DO freak out and break down. It takes a heck of a lot more than you're giving credit for to be Kagome.

Also, although I like that backstory, Rumiko did not write that novel. It was written by someone else and she provided some original artwork for it. It is also not canon.

NP: She's known Kagome was capable for an extemely long time. Way back in the Tsubaki arc she commented that if Tsubaki could not beat her, then it would impossible for her to beat Kagome. She is 100% aware of Kagome's strength as a miko. She is prolonging her life for revenge, and while on the surface that might be a good cause- it's also very selfish. We don't know what's happening to these girls souls. At the very *best* they're being held in some kind of lonely limbo while they are unwillingly used to forward a woman's revenge. How many souls were used? How many could have been saved had she swallowed her pride and admitted that she does not have to be the one to defeat Naraku? She wants this revenge for herself, and because she feels she unwittingly created Naraku, and that is why she is so insistent on it being her. Having a good cause and working towards it does not justify doing things that are bad. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I am not saying Kikyou should have joined up with the group. Heaven knows how akward that would have been, you're absolutely right. However, she rejects almost all help and assistance. You said she views it as HER mission to defeat Naraku. That's where the problem is. It's not. It is the mission of many people, and she is no more important than them in her quest. She shows self-righteousness and a bit of selfishness to take that role on, rejecting the help of others and in fact sacrificing their safety and almost attempting to force them to give up their mission because this is her job. Her revenge is no more worthy than anyone else's.  

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Hm, of all my years (25 years, give or take) spent watching anime, I'd have to say that, ultimately, the single worst dub I've ever seen was Sailor Moon. The voices, the editing, the damn "kissing cousins" fiasco…geez, it cannot get any worse than that.

And while I don't think the IY dub is in the "OMG HORRIBLE" category that Sailor Moon is/was, it's still bleh. I could do without Moneca Stori's voice and those infuriating "Sit, boy!" commands, among other things.  

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BLAH: No, schoolgirl characters in anime/manga ARE generally like that. Not always, but generally. I don't identify with Kagome at all, so please don't assume that's why she has fans. Many people just find her endearing and admirable. As a twenty-three year old college student who is absolutely nothing like her, I find her extremely unrelatable. But I admire her for being extremely strong and the kind of person that I'd like to be, even though I know I can't. She is ANYTHING but normal. If anything, the character I relate to best is IY. Maybe that's why I like Kagome so much. And no she has not freaked out in situations (unless you watch the anime), and no there is not a single character who has shown more 'bravery' than her. Comforting other people when they're sad is only one small thing she does. But in her defense, Kikyou seems to have trouble doing that simple thing. Being in the feudal era is not a huge toil for her? It's extremely toiling and downright traumatizing. It's her own strength and conviction that makes it 'not as toiling.'

Also, you can defend Kikyou fairly from trying to take IY to hell. I'll give you that. She thought Iy had betrayed her then. However, that does not explain away any of her other actions. Trying to kill Kagome, taking the jewel from her, the two men she killed, continuing to hold a claim on IY's life after she found out the truth, living on despite having to use the souls of dead girls- none of that can be explained by thinking IY betrayed her.  

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Haro, well, we will continue to disagree. I don't know where you get "a slight majority" dislikes the IY dub. Did you conduct some scientific survey or something? I doubt it. I go on a variety of websites; IY is never listed as one of the worse when fans are polled about best and worse dubs. Even on IY-exclusive sites, the quality of the dub is hardly ever mentioned; it's more of a "whatever you prefer" type of thing (although many people rave about Kappei). On the other hand, PoT gets slammed, and One Piece (along with Yugioh and other 4Kids shows) is listed on just about everybody's list of worse dubs. The PoT dub is not the worse ever, but to say it's better than IY??? As an anonymous poster just showed, a lot of IY fans prefer the IY dub; I have met no PoT fans thus far who prefer the PoT dub. I actually prefer some characters in the PoT dub over their Japanese counterparts, but they use too many of the same actors for different roles, so everybody sounds the same. That doesn't happen in IY. Also a lot of the PoT actors lack emotion in their characterizations — much worse than Kirby Morrow ever did. It's not the worse dub — and I can watch it sometimes — but it is no where as good as IY. I can accept that you dislike the IY dub — even that many other people dislike it, too — but just because your "slight majority" may dislike the dub does not mean they would say it's the "worst" like you're saying. That's not corroborated by fans on other sites. People will bash 4Kids before they even think of bashing IY.  

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Ew…4Kids. Isn't that the company behind Pokemon? Didn't they reek some sort of havoc when they changed the voice actors/actresses? I'll have to agree with those against 4Kids — those new VAs suck. Really, really, really suck. The new Ash makes me want to BBQ him alive with his own Pikachu.

And Yu-Gi-Oh lost me when this new crap started airing.  

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Well, yeah I would never argue that 4kids is worse than Ocean Group. Don't forget Nelvana/Dic too. Cardcaptors and Sailormoon are both very speshul. I kind of consider them in a separate category though since they're not dubbing anime normally so much as they're taking anime and turning it into Saturday morning cartoons. It's not the same kind of thing ADV, Funimation, Viz, Right Stuf, Geneon, Bandai, etc do. I have to admit that I like the old 4kids "Pokemon" voices (Rachel Lillis and Erica Stuart Team Rocket for the win), but the new ones are absolutely horrible. Oddly a lot of the voice actors I liked in original Pokemon went on to really make me cringe in One Piece.

I actually didn't mean that the majority thought IY was one of the worst dubs ever, just that it seems like a slight majority dislike it at least somewhat. Of course some dubs I think are excellent seem to be hated by a lot of people as well (I like "Rurouni Kenshin" better than its Japanese counterpart, but it seems it's pretty unliked), but either way it's not 'never listed.' I think it's listed pretty often.  

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Err I would never argue that 4kids is *better* than Ocean Group rather.  

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Ah, 4Kids doesn't have them anymore? No wonder I hate the new voices so much. Old Jesse and James = luv.

Haha, DiC is pretty speshul, too, but I have to give them some credit — at least they didn't do the "Mighty Morphin' Sailor Moon" version that Saban tried to bring to the US. OMG, now THAT was speshul.  

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It is worth remembering that Kikyou did not choose to return to life, but having returned, she clung to it. The Kikyou who appeared as a character was not the Kikyou who died fifty years ago. She was an abomination, created by wicked sorcery. The only part of her original soul contained within this body was the part that needed revenge, first against Inuyasha, then Naraku. The rest of the soul had returned to Kagome. Her actions as such was dictated by her need to revenge, and she pursued it ruthlessly. While she performed some good deeds in her second life, none of her actions were justifiable, and no argument could. She was cold, cruel, and manipulative in achieving her ends, closer to Naraku then to Kagome. I don't know if she could choose to die again. I don't know as she could forsake her revenge. Her revenge was the only thing that made this Kikyou Kikyou. Even what was left of her love for Inuyasha was tied to her need for revenge. This is not an indictment of her character. She was a great character, and was totally essential to the story. But until the ends justify the means (which they never will), Kikyou reborn was not a force for good in the way Inuyasha, Kagome, Sango, Miroku, and Koga are. Kaguru's death was heartbreaking, Kikyou's was necessary.  

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No, it's not listed "pretty often". It may be listed sometimes. The fact is that even though people complain about Monica Stori's Kagome, many others will compliment Kirby's or even Richard's performances, so that for many, it all evens out. So there are some good and some not as good performances in it (and I would argue Monica gets better as the series goes on) — hardly as bad as One Piece or Pokemon where just about everybody is bad. (Pokemon where I like neither dub, but I also hate kids series.) What I have seen most recently is people complaining about One Piece, Yugioh, and Pokemon the most — the 4Kids series. I do lump in Sailor Moon with these bad dubs because frankly I don't hold them exempt. 4Kids arguably was trying to make a Saturday morning cartoon out of those series, too. It's the same style of voice acting as cartoons that they use, and one of the main reasons why people hate 4Kids dubs. Then I see a lot of people complaining about Naruto (which I don't think is that bad, but hardcore fans really bitch about it A LOT). IY is kind of middle of the road from what I've seen. CB, Trigun, and FMA often are listed as the best, the 4Kids ones consistently the worst.  

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David — Your review of Kikyo's character is spot-on — for the first 20% of the manga.  

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Unless my memory is deceiving, chapter 503 is the first time in the entire series that Tessaiga (in its transformed state) and Tenseiga (in its normal state) come into to direct contact with each other, even if it was only for a split second.

Also, since Tenseiga is now destroyed. Anyone who dies or becomes mortally wounded from here on, has no chance of being revived or kept alive unless they use Kohaku's shard or somehow manage to get the jewel from Naraku.  

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KagomeKagome: OMG I saw the preview for that Saban thing. It's so hilarious. I wonder if it's on youtube. Ah here it is- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fsuV4l2gqM&mode=related&search=

You all should watch this, it's hilarious!!

Tiger: Moneca is enough, being the lead female. She's there all the time and she's important enough where if the dub is good, she has to be good too. One side-character voice might not be enough, but she is. I do agree she improves, and in extremely emotional scenes even does a very okay job later on. In Moneca (and all of the cast's) defense even as someone who doesn't like the dub, a lot of it is in the scripting and directing. She didn't invent all those 'like duh totally' lines, they were in the script. Same goes with some of the other characters- especially lots of Richard's lines. I feel like Toshi Yoshida, the director, wanted to make this another "Ranma 1/2," his previous project, and so the scripting is changed to work towards that in some cases. Dub IY becomes much more Ranma-esque which imho does not fit the series. One good example of that would be episode thirty, when Kagome almost takes out Naraku. In the original, manga and anime both, IY says 'Kagome, it seems that you're the strongest of all of us.' In the dub, IY says 'Wow, I've never seen you like that. You were almost as good as me!' Of course that's not remotely close to the original, but more so it works towards making IY more of a Ranma clone. Ranma has major ego issues and it drives him nuts when Akane does something that might possibly indicate a greater strength than that which he has so he has to subtly undermine her. IY doesn't have that ego issue, minus *very* early series (and back then it was a facade), so this line not only changed the impact of a very important scene- but was OOC. I know that's just one line but it is one that illustrates well my issues with the dub, and there are many more like it. The director of the IY dub is much more at fault than the voice actors themselves, and from interviews and such- Toshi Yoshida (director) has a poor grip on some of the characters. His description of IY is this:

In contrast, the half demon Inuyasha plays the heroic anti-hero. "Inuyasha is a scoundrel" laughs Yoshida Toshi, director of the "InuYasha" dub. "He doesn't care about right or wrong, and he doesn't want to work hard for anything, all he wants is to become stronger. But he's got a very simple approach to love, and he'll do anything to protect a girl he likes. He has all the things that make bad boys seem cool. Inuyasha is very popular with pre-teen girls, an audience that's never been particularly interested in Takahashi's work before, and I think they like Inuyasha because of this badboy image"

IY an anti-hero? Someone who doesn't care about right or wrong and just wants to be stronger without working hard? For what, the first two chapters of the manga? This is an extremely off description of IY, a character who is compassionate to a fault and protects everyone- not just 'the girl he likes.' He works extremely hard to gain all the victories in battle he has/upgrades to sword (too hard on that actually XD), and has no problem with it. I mean this interview is less than two years old. IY kind of loses at being badass anyway. It's sort of a joke at times. He tries and everyone just comments on how transparent he is and in time he just kind of gave up on it.

I do not exempt 4kids nor do I forgive their awfulness because they're trying to create Saturday morning fair. But I do consider them on another level then true 'anime companies,' because they aren't even attempting to produce authenticity.

David: You bring up many good points. Kikyou's actions were not justifiable and she was never a force of good like the Inu-tachi. She has been and will always be gray area. Kikyou's death was a means to an end, a necesssary. Kagura's death was an extremely sad chapter and a tragedy. I would say one thing I disagree with you about slightly is Kikyou when she was resurrected. While she was feuled by revenge, that's not because that's all that remained of her soul. It is because she was Kikyou, but she was Kikyou at the moment of her death which did leave her full of hate. As the series goes on she moves closer to becoming the Kikyou of fifty years ago, but the Kikyou of fifty years ago had some major issues as well with the choices she made, so resurrected Kikyou will be the same. By the time Kikyou dies, she has evolved past the Kikyou of fifty years ago. I think she was that Kikyou at the time of around the Shichinin-tai arc. Resurrected Kikyou matured past a point her previous life had, thanks to Kagome & InuYasha. However, she did not mature to a level that would come close to where they already were. She matured simply to a level where she could trust someone else to finish the job and die in peace, which she should have chosen to do a very long time ago.  

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Wait…so does that mean that Tessaiga won't aquire Tensaiga's healing abilities? If that's so then thank god.  

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NP: I certainly hope it doesn't. >>

I can't imagine how it would have gained them.  

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Haro: I agree that Kikyou matured, but it was more of a death bed moment. She seemed to see the light as she was passing, and concede that it was time for Kagome to take up her role. Her actions leading up to her death were her most deplorable. She was quite prepared to sacrifice both Kohaku and Koga in order to kill Naraku. While she does feel guilty in regards to Kohaku, in the end she only protects him when her body was tainted by Naraku's spider webs, and the purity of his shard was threatened. Her only truly selfless deeds in the manga were at Mt. Hakura, when she performs last rights on Suikotsu and St. Hakushin, allowing each to find peace in the next life.  

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David: I pretty much agree about those being her only 100% totally selfless deeds although I don't feel SO strongly against her actions as you do. (She did some other good/pretty selfless things, like helping villagers here and there when she was pretending to be a miko in their villages.) I WAS always very uncomfortable with the Kohaku situation, as well as the situation in which she took the remainder of Midoriko's soul. The scene where she tried to attack Kouga for his shards round 440 also made me feel like her development in the Shichinin-tai arc was for naught and was perhaps merely circumstantial. Kikyou's never been the most selfless of characters, which I feel is intentional irony because of her role as a miko. I kind of got the vibe when she saved Miroku that one of the main reasons she did it was because since she planned on sacrificing Kohaku, she wanted to comp Sango for something so she didn't feel too guilty for leaving her totally alone.  

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Haro: I agree. I didn't think of the fact that she made it a point to tend to the young, sick, and elderly wherever she went. In terms of the Kagome V. Kykou debate thats been raging one scene symbolizes everything for me. Kagome selflessly dove into the pool to purify Kykou's wounds, despite how she felt about her. Having been revived Kikyou makes a point of not thanking her, and coldly walks away, not even waiting to see Inuyasha.  

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Don't forget she did take care of injured soldiers of war and that she healed part of Miroku's wounds as best as she could.

And I just wanted to elaborate on what I said earlier about Kikyo feeling like it was her duty to destroy Naraku. Kikyo was the former protector of the Shikon jewel. She kept the jewel from getting into evil hands. Now that the jewel is in evil hands, Naraku's, she feels that she is responsible, as the former protector to get rid of Naraku, as well as the jewel.  

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p.s. That whole anti-hero quote you posted was ridiculous. Made no sense. He makes Inuyasha sound like a character from A Clockwork Orange. Weird.  

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David: That's a perfect example of what I mean as far as their differing levels of maturity. Kagome saved her without thought or a single doubt. Kikyou's pride could not handle that Kagome had saved her, and although she knew that Kagome had absolutely no doubt in her heart about saving her (she comments on this in thought), she doesn't thank her because it's 'her choice.' Kikyou doesn't know how to handle it because of her emotional immaturities. Kagome's level of compassion ('I'd save anyone, it's not a question of making a choice') is difficult for Kikyou to understand.

NP: But Kagome is the current guardian right? Not to mention the reason Naraku has the jewel is because Kikyou handed it right over to him. Despite her backwards plan in doing that, it still wasn't in line with being any kind of protector of the jewel. She's the reason he has it in the firt place. The selfishness comes in that she feels it is ONLY her duty, and she opposes everyone else doing it- despite the fact that they are often more justified than her in their revenge due to greater grudges- i.e. Sango and Kouga. At no point does she express that these people shouldn't go after Naraku because it's dangerous even. It's just that it's her holy mission, according to her. Many people have been hurt for her to achieve that. Who has the Inu-tachi hurt? Outside the enemies that have tried to kill them and the bandits IY got in his berserk form- no one.  

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Haro: Yes the means by which Kikyo has tried to accomplish her goal wasn't always the right way. She did try to kill Kagome so that she could retrieve the jewel, and she did try to use Kohaku's shard at the expense of his life. Also, I didn't deny that Kagome was the current protector with her powers of purification. I just said with Kikyo being brought back to life and all, she made it her mission as a former protector of the jewel to use it to rid the world of Naraku.

She doesn't necessarily oppose those who are after Naraku, but it's more that she feels they are not going about destroying Naraku the right way. None of the characters even gave thought in using the jewel in destroying Naraku, until she brought it up. The reason I disagreed with Kikyo's mission in destroying Naraku was because it seemed like she was doing it by "any means necessary". I see where you can get the word selfish to describe the way she was trying to accomplish it.  

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Machiavellian might be a better way to describe Kikyou. While her goals were coming from a good place, her methods were ruthless and frequently cruel. Nothing can change the fact that she was a crucial character. She was absolutely essential to moving the story along, so much so that she still exerts her influence in death.  

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Although I don't want to prolong this Kagome and Kikyou argument, as it is getting tediously boring, I feel that I have one thing I must say.

Haro – I believe you have done quite a brilliant analysis of Kikyou and Kagome. I agree with you on nearly 100% of what you have to say, some of which did not even occur to me until after I read your posts. I cannot agree more with what you have said about the role of emotions in maturity. No matter what anyone says, being unemotional is a very immature way to handle life. Kagome comes to face her emotions and admit her faults, while Kikyou does not. Also, age is not a measure of maturity. Adults can frequently be as immature as children. Kikyou's life being way more tragic or difficult than Kagome's also does not at all make her more mature. If your life is unbearably hard but you act immature about it, that does not make you more mature than someone who has lead an easy life. Once again, Haro, congrats on a beautiful analysis, I think you understand the manga very well.

On a completely unrelated note, I also agree with Haro about the dubbing. Don't get me wrong, I know next to nothing about dubbing, or voice actors or anything of that sort, so I do not claim authority in any knowledge associated with it. I do know one thing though – I love watching Inuyasha in Japanese with subtitles. But I can hardly stand to watch it in English. They seriously sound like silly little cartoons to me, like they were meant for children to watch. And that is only my personal opinion, which I admit holds no authority whatsoever. Still, I can't stand that show with the English dubs.  

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I think Sesshomaru will to be killed off, he's going to surpass his father and take a big part in killing Naraku (don't ask how I know) and I also think Inuyasha and Sessh will team up at the end to destroy Naraku but something unexpected will happen at the end. I cracked up at the person who called Naraku a floating head, I know its true but it was funny how you said that.

As for Kikyo and Kagome, I was sad Kikyo died but it was her time to and it was the only way Inuyasha would choose Kagome over Kikyo. He would have choosen Kikyo otherwise and he kind of said that when she died in his arms (not in those words of course).  

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opps, big mistake, I meant I DON'T THINK SESSHOMARU will be killed off  

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Also I HIGHLY doubt there will be another series but there may be a movie that relates to the series to close it off. Don't ask me how I know  

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Ok, Haro…exactly how is Kagome so special and "admirable"…hmm? The way she handles her love for Inuyasha? Well many girls would handle it a similar way…let's see first jealous of kikyo, then never quite gets over kikyo but accepts it. She is totally helpless in the beginning, but as her bow skills improve she starts to make meaningful contributions to the team. Yes, team…she is part of a very powerful team, she can almost always count on being saved by a haze no kizu or wind tunnel, etc. She has great friends in the fuedal era, plus if she is getting sick of it, she could just escape to the present. The only tough thing she has to deal with is lack of modern facilities when in IYs time, in exchange she gets the type of adventure and excitement that many people would love to have. What girl or guy wouldn't like to visit the past and have exciting adventures? Aren't many video games filling this void?
Finally, isn't saying "sit" a million times when ever she throws a temper tantrum a bit childish?  

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Anon: I know this sounds bad but you really sound like you're influenced heavily by the anime in your opinions or you're just plain ignoring a lot of in series events. That is NOT manga Kagome. Actually she does get over Kikyou and accept her role in InuYasha's life as well as Kikyou's. And even if she didn't, she was never vengeful or vindictive towards her like Kikyou was to Kagome. This was the entire point of the Mt. Asuza arc. No, most teenagers could not handle love like Kagome has. Most teenagers aren't mature enough to have such a genuine love as of yet.

Kagome is not helpless at the beginning. Once again the anime plays her as a damsel, but that's never been the case in the manga. This may come as a shock, but it's Kagome who defeats the second two villains in the series. Kagome is the one who defeats Yura as well as the crow youkai. She's also the one who defeats Tsukomo no Gama (through her own intelligence and with a brief last strike from IY's claws) and resolves the Tattarimokke issue. In the first three volumes there are five villains defeated, and Kagome is the one who takes out three of them. That's about as far from helpless as you can get. In opposition, IY takes out the Noh Mask and the Centipede woman, but fails on Sesshoumaru of course. Kagome's doing better early on if anything. Even in the very beginning she shows a strength in battle that's unexpected. InuYasha even comments on that as early as volume two.

As for her always being saved by a kaze no kizu or a kazaana? First off Miroku's never really actively saved Kagome (although he has Kikyou), and she is not saved all the time or even close to. By ratio of appearance, Kikyou is saved far more often. Kagome saves herself plenty often, and saves others plenty as well.

As for the modern amenities being the only thing she's missing out on, imho that's pretty bogus. Kagome has been faced with emotional tests that have tried the very core and recesses of who she is. These situations would break most people, but she's only come out stronger for them. Her life is constantly in peril, and those of her friends as well. She is constantly fighting in life or death situations and death is always only a heartbeat away. She is a firsthand witness to horrible acts of murder, war, and even mutilation. She has had her soul sucked out, run through a pool of acid, been cursed, been forced to try and kill the man she loves while conscious in mind, had someone literally delve into her heart attempting to break her, etc. etc. The list could go on for pages. These are not fun adventerous romps for her. Anything but. No, most people wouldn't like the excitement of this. If they would, they're really not thinking about what it entails or they're really twisted and sick to want to inflict such mental and physical trauma on themselves and be a witness to the savegery Kagome has been.

She doesn't sit him a million times. Actually 'sits' are few and far between in the manga and they grow less and less common as the manga goes on. Temper tantrums aren't common either, and that behavior is not near as severe as other characters in similar situations. Sango gets angry at Miroku when he looks at another woman, Kikyou's jealousy is violent, and InuYasha's actions toward Kouga are completely out of hand and inappropriate (although also very funny). That statement alone indicates anime I think, as in I'm not exaggerating in saying she sits him at least one hundred times more in the anime.  

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Kono Naraku: Thank you very much for the compliment. It is nice that someone agrees. XD

David: I agree that Kikyou is somewhat of a Machiavellian character. She believes that the end is more important than the means, undoubtedly. I'm not a Kikyou hater by any means. But I also don't see her with rose-colored glasses as I think a lot of the fandom does. I also agree on her significance of her character. She is definitely the most important 'side character' and I think the series would lack something without her.

Kaylie: Sesshoumaru & Inuyasha will not defeat Naraku together. Takahashi wouldn't ignore that much development in the opposite. I would bet money on it. Him being written out doesn't mean he'll die. Kouga didn't die.  

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>>3925

Wow, where in the hell do you get your information, Anonymous Coward (I think the Slashdot term fits nicely here)? Watch the anime much?

I know this is asking too much, but this site is dedicated to the manga. It would be…I don't know…awesome? if we could stick to discussing things that have happened in the manga, not the anime because — while I love the anime, too — it tends to make everyone look more childish for comic appeal.  

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Um I'm writing this comment to avoid confusion. Only posts 3891 3872 and 3860 are mine. the 'other' anonymous is someone different.
because in all honesty I don't know enough about maturity to judge Kikyou and kagome in that matter.  

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Folks, this is how to spell it. Anonymous. Only one 'n' after the 'a'. Sorry to be so particular about it, but it was kind of bothering me. :S

Now back to discussion!   

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yeah I know I spell it that way to 'differ' myself if it really bothers you I can change it.  

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>>3929

Don't fret over it. I believe this same person has used "Anon" other times, if I recall correctly.  

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Takahashi makes archetypes in this comic and adds her own lil twist. Inuyasha is like the younger, better dressed, but stupider version of hamlet. A emotionally rocked idiot who has 1: a deep attachment to the ghost of his previous love Kikyo(aka ophelia), 2: a tether attaching him to his father(sword aka living will of his father), and 3: mental instability.
Also, let's get with it people…Inuyasha is a lot older than most of us are willing to believe. I would seriously put his age at the very least 75 years old…they do mention that hanyou aging and developement is slower than human aging which I take to mean that by the time a human would die of old age (in that day and age 60-70 years tops) Inuyasha would still appear as a healthy teenager.
Don't hail down the flames when I say that Kikyo really is the moving force behind this whole comic. She was the invisible force moving this whole plot forward 50 years after her death. She was so badass even death couldn't slow her down! She was the reason behind the creation of naraku (if she didn't take care of him mad long ago then he dies, therefore no naraku, therefore no plot, aka kikyo=driving force in the whole comic), the first and true catalyst behind the maturing of Inuyasha (btw the scenes between her and Inuyasha are the most down to earth and real images I have yet to see out of this entire comic), and finally the highest attainable level of righteousness basically ever (she lived as a saint, died an honorable death, was ressurected twice!, then kissed her one and only true love before she died a martyrs death).
I really hope that Takahashi gets serious and doesn't cheapen her masterpiece anymore than she already has (come on people am I the only person who has a huge problem with the "sit" thing?!, also, lame recurring excuses concerning Kohaku's continued existence)
On one final note I truly do love this comic and I will say it is nothing less than a masterpiece. But don't grill me because my favorite part of this comic has come and gone (aka kikyo). I have high hopes for our dear author and the outcome of this comic. In the meantime great job starks and patches for giving us this pimp website to visit! yah!
Inuyasha for president baby!  

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No, I hate that "sit" thing too. Does Kagome even realize that that hurts Inuyasha? She only does that so much because it makes her feel like she has power over him, and like they have a bond that he can't do anything about. She also does it to relieve stress which is a load of cows. One more thing, doesn't the fact that Kikyo chose not to sit Inuyasha because she loved him and Kagome does anyway, mean that Kikyo is/was a better person then Kagome?  

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FOR THE LAST TIME: KAGOME DOES NOT MAKE INUYASHA SIT WITH GREAT FREQUENCY IN THE MANGA! This is something that the anime does for humor, but it is NOT something that RT has Kagome do a lot in the manga. How many times does this have to be repeated to stop confusing the anime with the manga? First with the third movie ages, now the anime sit thing. Don’t get me wrong, I know Kagome will occasionally do it – but not often. Not to mention Inuyasha usually deserves it when he gets one….  

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Ouch! "Anonymous coward"…hmm no need for name calling.

One final point about Kikyo/Kagome, the reason that their vastly differing experiences is important…is it makes it actually difficult to judge the two. Had Kagome been through what Kikyo had, would she react differently? The truth is we don't know. Actually…we do, since kagome is the reincarnation of kikyo (hence they have the same soul) if put through identical experiences they should act exactly the same. It is the same in judging who is a better person, how much is due to experience and how much is inherent. A person who has been through tremendous suffering and torture can't be expected to be a bucket of sunshine and it is frankly unfair to compare her to someone who had been through far, far less both in time and in experiences.  

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Inuyashagirl234: Kikyou did not choose not "to sit Inuyasha". When they were together fifty years ago he did not have the beads of subjugation on. The sit command is strictly Kagome's power and there has been nothing to imply Kikyou had the ability. The only other person who has tried was Sango (very funny scene, though I forget what chapter), and it didn't work for her.  

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I give up on this discussion because, honestly, even though everyone is making a lot of good points to keep this going, there's always going to be one person (or a few people) who, no matter what, will never accept anything other than their own narrow-minded ideas. Nevermind if someone else could add more to what they're already saying or open them to other possibilites…nevermind if they're proven wrong by the goddamn manga even, and the proof is in front of them in a huge blinking marquee.

I'm sorry, but Kikyou is not the "driving force" behind this manga, nor is anyone else but Inuyasha, himself (and as much as I ♥ Kagome, I still have to say this). Otherwise, the title of this manga would be "Kikyou, Worldly Miko" and not "Inuyasha". Yes, we have other cast members and their stories, but at the end of it all, everything rolls back to Inuyasha and his huge penis envy thing power-ups/increases in strength. This is shounen manga, after all; not shoujo.

Don't worry. I won't expect you to agree or even think about what you said because 1.) we don't always have to agree 100% here (and usually, this leads to interesting discussions, but not today), and 2.) you already have your mind made up, it seems.  

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I have to correct this because it weakens your argument. A guy, like Inuyasha, cannot have penis envy because he does have a penis. Penis envy applies to females (the theory in psychoanalysis that girls envy what boys have). I think you mean penis compensation instead.

Anyway, why does this happen all the time, these arguments of Kikyo versus Kagome? It's very old. I mean, they are both important characters and both have their strengths and weaknesses, positive traits and negative traits. I like them both and see value in both of them. To debate this to death is like saying I'm a better person than one of you because I can one thing well or because I don't make such-and-such mistake. Nevermind that someone else may be better at something else I'm not good at or may not have certain faults that I have. Unless someone is evil like Naraku and has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, it's a moot argument. It doesn't make sense to focus on some characteristics for one at the exclusion of others. Such attitudes taken to the extreme (which may be starting to happen here) lead to prejudice and worse things. I'm not trying to squelch discussion on here, but it seems like nothing is accomplished by debating this over and over. Some people will prefer one character to the other, but it's not like either one of them is truly bad or worthless.  

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>>3943

Technically, it's not name-calling. I tend to use it because a "nerd" website I've posted at for years uses that moniker for anyone who posts anonymously.

Hm…I understand what you're saying, but what makes it difficult for me to agree totally is that even though they do share the same soul, they do have different personalities. While I see similarities in how they act in certain situations, sometimes, we can't really say that they'll always act alike.

And to bring up that reincarnation thing I talked about earlier in this thread, if you bring karma and enlightenment into this (and goodness knows, you don't have to; it's just fiction), Kagome is Kikyou's "second chance" to atone for her past behaviors/mistakes so she can rest peacefully, so that does sort of make Kagome the better person. But if you don't buy into karma and the like, then you don't have to buy what I'm saying either. No big whoop.  

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>>3946

Yeah, that's what I meant. Dammit, I'm sorry. I'm trying to type here, Fark, and Digg all at once, and I'm getting my crap all fuddled.   

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Oh, and as for this debate…this is tame compared to other places I've been for this fandom. Haro can vouch for that.

Actually, it's refreshing to have people that offer some sort of proof/sources to back them up when they talk about something, and it's nice to see this debate isn't going into that "OMFGWTFBBQ SESSHO PWNZ ALL UR AZZEZ!!! KAGOME SUXORZ!!1!" area.

/I'm looking at you, Livejournal, and the Yahoo Groups
//and sometimes, Fandom Wank  

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KagomeKagome: Yeah this is pretty mild.

Anon: Kagome and Kikyou having the same soul does NOT NOT NOT make them the same person.

I'm sorry but this is a huge pet peeve. That is NOT how reincarnation works. Not.at.all. Kagome if raised in Kikyou's place and put through the same situations would NOT act exactly the same because she is not Kikyou. Their 'personalities are not a part of each other.' Rumiko's words. She stresses this over and over again.

InuYashagirl: The 'sit' is a visual gag and scarcely happens. In a sense it doesn't hurt InuYasha because you're really not supposed to think that hard on it. I just can't understand why people take it seriously. It happens all the time in manga and western cartoons as well. It's called slapstick. Sheesh. >> And why does no one harp on Sango for slapping Miroku with a boomerang? He's human so it's probably more painful. I would never harp on her either, because it's slapstick- but it's really only Kagome who gets it.

Also, Kikyou didn't 'sit' InuYasha but she bound him to her and claimed his life as hers. That was not slapstick. And what about her behavior towards others?

Feyd: Lol at Kikyou being the driving force behind the manga.  

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/I’m looking at you, Livejournal, and the Yahoo Groups
//and sometimes, Fandom Wank

Huh?

True, things here aren't as heated as some places, but it just gets tiresome to see the same thing argued over and over every place, especially since nothing ever comes of it. It just seems to get people more entrenched in their former positions, if anything. Thank goodness no one is doing the "OMGWTF" type thing here! I suppose it is nice that people have been more intelligent about it and try to substantiate what they are saying. My pet peeve is the juvenile, diehard Sessho fans: "OMG Sesshy is teh best, hes sooo sexay, Inu sux!!!" I'm actually surprised (yet relieved) the debate is Kikyo vs. Kagome and not Sess vs. Inu. That is even more tiresome.  

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In order to buy into this manga you have to buy into Buddhist ideals such as karma. You don't have to personally believe in it, but at least buy into it for the sake of the story, which is heavily tied to Buddhism and Shinto. This is pop Buddhism (I'm no expert), but you have to believe that reality is an illusion. The physical: love, happiness, sadness, greed, hunger, etc. are not real, they are constructs of humanity. In order to achieve Nirvana, one must abandon the illusionary reality in order to embrace the real: Buddha. Prior to becoming embroiled with Naraku, Kikyou led an exemplary life, quite possibly saintly. Her ability to keep the shard pure is proof of this. Truly, she would attain Nirvana in the next life. Unfortunately, due to the violent nature of her death, her soul was left seeking vengeance. Vengeance and sadness are not compatible with Nirvana, necessitating reincarnation.

Keep in mind that Kikyou and Kagome are to wholly different people. They share nothing but a soul, and that soul would have inhabited bodies before being reincarnated as Kikyou. The reason characters like Kaede and Inuyasha comment on Kagomes resemblance to
Kikyou is that it is such an unusual thing to resemble your past life in so many ways. It is something that a Buddhist (or Hindu) would not consider normal. Additionally, a reincarnated soul would have no conscious recollection of a past life, though it may subconsciously influence their deeds.  

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What happened? That was me in 3951, and I typed my name in and everything. ??? Anyway, I gotta say I do harp on Sango hitting Miroku. It's one thing to say "sit" to a hanyou who is strong and who is often doing something that could get others hurt. Quite another to hit a human being with heavy bone boomerang used to kill demons for simply being touched on the butt. A bit extreme if you ask me. I'm not a fan of slapstick, but I do realize it's humor and not reality. It's just that the joke gets old quick. Thank goodness neither happens much anymore.  

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Tiger: You're the first person I've ever seen harp on Sango about that to be honest. I don't really agree, but at least by doing so you don't have a double standard like most of the 'osuwari' haters where it's horrible when Kagome does it and okay when someone else does. To add to that though, where's all the people harping on IY's behavior towards Kouga?

David: You bring up some interesting points, but remember that Kikyou is Shinto, not Buddhist. Things are a bit different, although there are some similarities.

I have always wondered if Kikyou and Kagome's physical similarity might be somewhat of a coincidence put in to cause conflict by RT. You're absolutely right in pointing out that the reason everyone reacted oddly over Kagome looking like her is because that just doesn't happen. Although they DO look alike at the beginning of the manga, it's still not an exact resemblance. A soul is reincarnated over and over throughout time, and undoubtedly there were hundreds of people before Kikyou who had it and probably many between when Kikyou died and Kagome was born. Yes Kagome was the 'chosen one' (lol), given the Miko powers and sent to sengoku jidai. But a soul doesn't carry with it 'personality' DNA. Although it does at times happen in fiction, it's really not possible for someone to be born again with the same personality- just ending up different because of how they were raised.

Although a subconscious recollection of a past life can influence deeds, Kagome doesn't even have that, so she is truly her own as are her decisions.  

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Haro: Good points. one thing about Shinto. Buddhism and Shinto have coexisted in Japan for about 1000 years. Even in Inuyasha, RT doesn't bother to untangle Buddhist and Shinto beliefs. I am not well versed in Shinto, but Kikyou's reincarnation as Kagome is very Buddhist in execution. The Shikon no Tama on the other hand is purely Shinto (as pointed out by Miroku, a Buddhist Monk). Japan is not like the west where Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are generally held to be incompatible.  

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Haro: Good points. one thing about Shinto. Buddhism and Shinto have coexisted in Japan for about 1000 years. Even in Inuyasha, RT doesn't bother to untangle Buddhist and Shinto beliefs. I am not well versed in Shinto, but Kikyou's reincarnation as Kagome is very Buddhist in execution. The Shikon no Tama on the other hand is purely Shinto (as pointed out by Miroku, a Buddhist Monk). Japan is not like the west where Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are generally held to be incompatible.

When I say subconscious, I mean a subtle mental influence on actions and deeds that one is not aware of. Pasts lives do influence current ones, just not in a direct way. The reincarnation of a wicked soul will have wicked impulses, and must learn to control them in order to move on. A reincarnation of a pure soul (or nearly pure) will have noble instincts, but will still be open to temptation. This does not mean that the previous host of the soul is influencing the current, it just reflects the state of the soul itself.

A soul has no individuality. Individuality, weather through nature or nurture, is a human condition. Individuality is a focus on the self, and an awareness of your place in an imperfect world. To move beyond ego, and take no account for the self is essential in reaching Nirvana.  

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p.s.: disregard 3957, something malfunctioned and I got an error message half way through the entry. 3958 is the real post.  

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Oh, Tiger, if you were confused by my "I’m looking at you, Livejournal, and the Yahoo Groups," I wasn't talking directly to you. *lol* I was talking to Livejournal and Yahoo. Sorry for the confusion. *is embarrassed*  

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I have been reading this site for a few weeks, but hadn't felt a desire to post here prior to now. (Seemed to have quite enough interesting posters on it already).
But what can I say, I am a bit bored and I happen to like this current discussion.

Everyone will like a character for thier own reasons, it is unlikely that anyone will consider a change in thier "favorite" character simply because someone else disagrees.
Much of why we like a character is based on how we choose to look at thier actions, even with the scans and the translations right in front of us we can still draw different conclusions from it. We are allowed some freedom, reading between the lines, which…IMO..makes the manga all the more interesting.
I very much like RT's approach in this regard, the story leaves some room for the readers imagination.

As far as Sango goes, frankly if it was me and Miroku was taking the liberty of "feeling" my behind he wouldn't be getting back up. Though it makes for some great humor in the story.

Besides the real story here isn't about Kagome or Kikyou, Sesshoumaru or Inuyasha…….It's all about Jaken. I don't see why ppl keep missing that. Lmao.  

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Is Grandpa the reincarnation of Jaken? Is Sota Shippou reborn? Does Buyo equal Kirara? Could it be?  

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3961
I know exactly what you mean! everyone keeps forgetting that the Inu gang trying to kill Naraku is nothing more than a measly side story to keep the audience entertained while Jaken learns to lower himself to be with Sesshoumaru!
JakenXSesshoumaru 4evr!  

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Sorrel: My arguments don't really have to do with favorite character and I didn't intend for this to be a Kikyou vs. Kagome- just a discussion of their characters. XD I never implied Kikyou was a bad character at all. I definitely wasn't intending to change anyone's favorite character. I do wish some were given a fair chance to at least be appreciated/seen as the character RT has written, but I'm not trying to change anyone's favorite character. Kikyou's more interesting as the miko with questionable intent and a belief that the end justifies the means, than as the tragic heroine, I feel. Not a 'better' person, but far more interesting. Kagome's more interesting as a girl who appears normal in her era, but proves to be anything but as we get to know her and she gets to know herself, then some average teenage girl going on a coolio adventure and being average the whole time.

Sango doesn't just whack Miroku when he gropes her. She also whacks him when he asks another woman to bear her child, and long before she's in any kind of relationship with him. Additionally, she's gotten angry and done things like it in situations when he's innocent (she doesn't hear him out). He didn't promise to marry Shima. He just helped her a few years ago. Sango's actions there weren't really warranted. In the sense of her slapstick, she is absolutely no better than Kagome regarding her temper. She's not worse. But she's not better. I like Sango plenty, but it's just really unfair that she gets away with doing the same things Kagome is bashed for.  

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Besides the real story here isn’t about Kagome or Kikyou, Sesshoumaru or Inuyasha…….It’s all about Jaken. I don’t see why ppl keep missing that.

LMAO!!! That was brilliant!

I guess I'm one of the few, but if Miroku was busy groping my buttcheeks, I'd let him do it. 1.) He's a dying man. 2.) Ah, to be touched by someone that shares the same name as the future incarnation of Buddha! 3.) Also, I am rather fond of him.  

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Also, yes Jaken is definitely the true hero of the story. And David- Buyo is not the reincarnation of Kirara, he's her true love. Someday Buyo is going to shove himself in that backpack go to the past and bam- love at firight sight.   

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'firight sight.' XD Wtf is that? First sight of course.  

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Very Funny Haro!  

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Back the train up peeps… Downplay Kikyo? Didn't she..you know…make naraku in a sense? Didn't she take care of him? Didn't he lust after her? Isn't she now the only reason that there is a single point of light in naraku's shard? Didn't she teach Inuyasha what love is? Lol at me all you want…doesn't change the facts.
My two cents: this karma theory is basically a beat deal. All Kikyo ever did was good things. Taking care of children, the sick, elderly, always had a golden heart, right up till her death. The one dark thought she had kept her from attaining nirvana?
She was a saint during her life, then got played out, then got killed, she's back again!, gets payed out again, dies a martyr…so unfair..that's what I call a beat deal.
And I don't need people laughing at my opinions…pfft…if I wanted to get laughed at I'd ask for a big mac at burger kind. Is there such a thing as literary interpretation? I guess not!
I conceed that a lot of people have changed my way of thinking about this comic on this site, but I still have my own opinion as to why things happen. I am not expecting anyone to read some post and that's it…end all be all post about everything. I like the fact that each person can read this comic and get something different out of it.
Inuyasha for president baby!  

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Uh, even if Kikyou did those things, it still doesn't change the fact that this manga does not revolve around her. But I'm not arguing this anymore, as I previously stated because I'm not here to change your mind.

As for the "karma theory," I'll just reiterate what David said since he put it better than me: "In order to buy into this manga you have to buy into Buddhist ideals such as karma. You don’t have to personally believe in it, but at least buy into it for the sake of the story, which is heavily tied to Buddhism and Shinto."  

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You just don't understand, Jaken is thee most important character, all others are just filler….lmao.

What so few but the most faithful of fans (or perhaps the more twisted) understands is that Jaken is thee man.
To fully appreciate Jaken you need only to look at his many points of endearment.

1). He is a homemaker. He makes camp.
You wouldn't see Sesshoumaru doing all the mundane things that make a forest a home.

2). He "grills" out all the time, it's a "man" thing. All "real" men grill out.
You don't see Sesshoumaru starting any campfires do you ?

3). He is a reliable babysitter. When Sesshoumaru wants a little excitement he just leaves.
Perhaps Sesshoumaru IS just running to the hair stylist……but dang as a parent you learn that you have to schedule these things around your obiligations.

4). He is the main provider for their dependant child, Rin.
Okay, even if he doesn't exactly get her food he still has to go with her sometimes. You don't see Sesshoumaru going do you ?

5). He is loyal, how many ppl do you know that are willing to stick around after they are beaten time and time again ?
(And if you DO know anyone like that you might want to suggest therapy).

6). He has a staff that ignites. Really…….. No sword compares to a hot "staff".
It's all natural too, no enhancements needed.

7). He is truthful, even when it is a proven fact Sesshoumaru is not fond of the truth.
Which also makes him fairly brave, not particulary smart, but brave none the less.
(I would have added bravery as a 8th point but I had to subtract one point for stupidity so it ended up a draw).

He is an imp, that is true, but calling him a frog is just fun.
Even though frogs don't have beaks, at least not any frogs that I have ever seen.
And frogs don't have pointy ears.
If you see any frogs like this you might want to consider moving…..your area may have some undesirable chemicals in the water.
Frogs don't have three fingers, toes, they have four.
Again if you see any frogs with missing digits your water may be a problem.
Or perhaps WHAT you are drinking is the problem and it's not your water at all.
Well at least he IS green.

As a true fan, I know not only of his humble origins but of his days of glory yet to come.
For you see, Jaken will suffer what some may consider a bit of a mishap in the far future.
He accidently swallows his staff of two heads and then is exposed to radation.
.
.
.
.
.
.
And becomes the legendary monster Godzilla.
Who, by the way, still retains a fondess for water and little japanese boys.
………..I think because of his froggy disposition and his exposure to Kohaku.  

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That's just awesome, Sorrel. ♥  

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Feyd: Not going to debate a lot of this (like her 'teaching InuYasha what love is' and her 'golden heart' O.o;), but KagomeKagome is right. No she's not the driving force of the manga, because it's not about her. I'm not denying her extreme importance, but to say 'so and so wouldn't exist and therefore no plot' as you've done is kind of convoluted.

In that case, couldn't we fairly say InuYasha's mother is the most important influence in the cast? Because without her, 'Inupapa would never have fallen in love with her, she wouldn't have died causing InuYasha to become to wounded person he was, and most importantly, the main character wouldn't have even been born! Oh and hey, Naraku might not have been born either, since he was born of the jealousy from Kikyou's relationship with InuYasha and the lust he had for her.' Of course she's not, and it would be silly to argue her as such. Arguing Kikyou as such, despite her having an actual presence in the series, is kind of the same.

Also, she is not 'the only reason there's a point of light in the jewel.' If you recall, that point was put there when Kagome fired an arrow (an arrow that would not have existed in the first place had Kagome not been put through that whole emotional catharsis) into Kikyou and Kikyou in turn fired said arrow into Naraku. Tagteam. It was a teamup, the one big teamup Rumiko had Kikyou & Kagome share and I thought it was really great. Both of their powers were equally important in it and both of them contributed.

Sorrel: I agree with Jaken but you forget his to die for sense of humor and his classic pinup-esque sex appeal.  

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sorrel: how did you figure it all out? wait… you're RT in disguise!!!!!!!!!

i'm gonna have to say that it's to hard to judge Kikyo and Kagome because they are two different people, with two different personalities. They may have the same soul, but not only did they grow up in different times, have different families, diffrent friends, and different people to teach them their morals, they're also just different. NOTHING can change that.  

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Let's find a truce at least and agree to disagree.

Though, to further elaborate on the reincarnation of Kikyo into Kagome, here's some food for thought:
"There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no egoentity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the word."
-Buddha
So, yes, Kagome is not Kikyo's double, since there is no rebirth of self, however there is a transmigration of character. In my opinion, Kagome's strength is also a reflection of Kikyo's strength and character unbound by the restrictions and burdens place on the late miko's life.

Buddha referred to passed lives, however according to Buddhism there is no permanent self, or identity. Similar things can be said about Shinto though I may have to check back on it.

At least that way it's better to find a truce, neither is better than the other, they were just raised under different circumstances and experienced different things. Kagome is Kagome and Kikyo is Kikyo. It's like comparing ice and water, both are H2O when you look at them composed of the same thing, however they were placed in different environments and thus differ in behavior and functioning. Had the water lived in the freezing cold, it would have frozen over time, but melted once it reached warmth (Kikyo); and had the ice lived in warmth it would be as the flowing waters (Kagome).  

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Lmao, no not RT, or the story would have been a bit shorter, and bit more to the point. And no doubt, there would be a heck of a lot less sword arcs.

And yes, I must dispell one point of error.
I was not dropped on my head as a small child.
(Though my older brothers did stick me in the dryer once in awhile when our parents were gone. They keep telling me that I "liked it". Frankly I don't recall that part). Yes that is the truth.

Haro, I did sort of allude to Jaken's sex appeal. With the point about his staff but I was uncertain just how far I should go with it. Not knowing just how young some of the fanbase is, didn't want to be responsible for leaving emotional scars. LOL.  

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Karin: No more single discussion of the characters, but the idea that Kagome is Kikyou and Kikyou is Kagome pretty much completely demeans the individuality of each character and that's why I have such an issue with it. You're basically a clone of someone else, just born in another time another place. That's not really romantic to me, but actually kind of disturbing. It's not true in Takahashi's universe as she's reminded us in the series especially via Kagome herself's assertions and outright said in interviews 'Kagome is not a personality that is part of Kikyou and vice versa.' RT kind of puts a twist in reincarnation in her story. In some other types of fiction, a character like Kagome would recall her past life, be InuYasha's 'soulmate' and basically be Kikyou reborn- same girl different time. And then I'd hate it. XDD

That's not the case with this manga. I hate the idea of soulmates, but it's a popular fictional ploy. It's not present here. Nor is Kagome Kikyou 'reborn.' She is Kagome, who happens to have the same 'life force,' but that's not influent on her personality.

What is consistent is the soul. That's it. No, I'm not arguing with Buddha. XD I actually just don't agree with your interpretation of the quote. If there is no permanent self or identity, as you said- Kagome can't be Kikyou in another time period, what Kikyou would have been like if not held down by her miko role. Kagome would have been different in Kikyou's shoes, and Kikyou different in Kagome's. Their strengths and weaknesses are their own.  

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I should add that Buddhist reincarnation entails that all creatures have souls. Generally in your next life you are not going to be human. Of course if you're Kikyou in one life and a ladybug in the next, you can't be Kikyou and vice versa. The personality is individual to each life 'At the death of one personality, a new one comes into being.'  

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And if you see Kagome as a generic schoolgirl I think you haven’t read/watched that much anime/manga with world traveling females. Kagome’s so delightfully different from the angsty, blushy, clumsy, does he like me??, archetype in most of those and it’s absolutely refreshing. And I simply don’t understand how anyone could call her character (especially in the manga, mostly there actually) generic. Takahashi writes the toughest shounen lead females.

Also, to clarify my standpoint, since I missed this earlier statement, yes I've seen plenty of anime so I base my opinion on more than just world-traveling, exotic females. To be truthfull, I utterly despise the "damsel-in-distress" types and that's just a personal preference, please do take it with a grain of salt. I see Kagome as no different or special from your generic school-girl type, but again that's my personal preference. When compared to characters like Rukia (Bleach) – who's basically taken a back seat to Ichigo, but meh – Mikoto (Sailor Moon), Ryoko (Tenchi), Asuka (EVA), the entire female cast from D. Gray-man, and even Akane (Ranma) – and Kagome's no Akane- she's nothing unique or even special.

I like my girls tough from the core, who can take their opponents on even when their not holding their favorite toy (weapon). Who suffer from more than the ever so cliche "Oh, no it's the other woman" and "-Insert-male-lead name here-!" whenever she's in trouble. Characters who have a real backstory and history that would make any stomach weak have always appealed to me. So, sorry, I can't admire a character who hasn't really lived all that much. And, no, Takahashi does not have the toughest female leads, don't get me wrong she has some strong females, but there are far better out there.

And yes, I'm going based off of the mange, since I've read every volume up until now. Has my stanced on Kagome changed? Yes, she's no longer the whiny brat that I first perceived her to be. Is she still the generic/Japanese/Mary-Sue? Yes, but as I've said before that's how I'll always see her as long as there is an Akane, Mikoto, Morimura (who I'm sure you all aren't familiar with), Ryo, Chun-li, Hikaru, Dirty Pair (not Flash mind you), and Ryoko.  

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Rinali? A non-cliche female? No. Rinali is a completely one dimensional character and is very stereotypical as far as shounen lead. She has potential, but it's squandered by Hoshino's writing ability. Normally, she's the kind of character I'd like. I stopped following D Gray Man because I was so exasperated by her inability to write solid characters.

Rukia? Spends an entire arc, over one hundred chapters, trapped in a tower being rescued. Resigned to death, she lets her weakness get the best of her.

Akane- Is rescued far more often than Kagome, has far more fits of jealousy, and in fact the entire last arc of the manga is about rescuing her. Her contribution is almost zero during that arc. I LOVE Akane. She is my favorite Ranma character by FAR, but less generic than Kagome she is not. Stronger? Not even close. And life has not been hard for her.

Hikaru? From Rayearth? Nice character, but pretty stereotypical as far as a shoujo lead. Once again, life wasn't too tough for her before she came.

Ryoko? Violent and possessive.

Asuka? I like her, but there's no denying she's a b*tch. She's intended to be.

…How are all those girls better than Kagome?  

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There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no egoentity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the word.”
-Buddha

For all making the argument that Kikyou and Kagome are the same, this quote is proof that is not true.

1. There is a rebirth of character; Thy thought-forms reappear: The nature of the soul remains the same when it is first reborn. Good remains good, wicked remains wicked, and in between remains in the middle. Having been reformed the soul remains the same. It is up to the new individual to change the karma. A wicked soul has a chance for redemption. A pure soul can become wicked.

2. No transmigration of the self; there is no egoentity transferred: The ego is lost upon death. Personality, memories, emotions, everything that make you you dies with you. The reincarnated soul has no recollection of thoughts and actions taken in the previous life. The ego is temporary, it is a veil to true knowledge. Until the last vestiges of ego are shed Nirvana can not be reached. You must see past the self and the petty selfish needs of this world to be at peace.

3. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the word: This supports the first point. The soul can learn. The soul can raise its station. As it moves forward karmicly, it retains the lessons of each life. This is true for bad karma as well.

Kikyou could not attain Nirvana due to the violent circumstances of her death and the souls need for revenge. Revenge, anger and all emotion are of this world. They are illusions. Until the soul is free of them, Nirvana can not be reached. But this is not western religion. You are not judged based on one life. The soul has eternity to achieve Nirvana, and as many lifetime as needed to reach. Kikyou performed many good deeds in her life. They are only unrewarded because it is not yet time for rewards are to be given. She did not have such bad karma, or she would not have been reincarnated in circumstances as favorable as Kagome's. Kikyou lived a saintly life, but her soul still had some tarnish. She was not pure enough to accept her own death, and forgive those responsible.  

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p.s : Haro, good points all around! RT has gone out of her way throughout the Manga (and Anime) that Kagome is not Kikyou.  

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David: Thank you, and you did a great job of that analysis above.

P.S. to Karin. There are many characters you listed that I like. I'm not faulting you for liking them more than Kagome. What I don't understand is how they're better, stronger, less cliche characters than Kagome. I did not bring up some you listed- but the tough girl stereotype- Chun Li, Ryoko, Dirty Pair, etc- is every bit as common a cliche, if not more than the schoolgirl (which Kagome doesn't fall in as well as you say, and she is not a damsel in distress type). You just happen to seem to prefer another character archetype, but honestly it's no less cliche.  

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Just like you guys are arguing that you can't judge either Kikyo or Kagome by who they were in the beginning of the series because it's not who they are now, you can't judge Rukia by that description you gave. I don't know if you keep up with Bleach, but Rukia has shown an amazing amount of courage lately. She is not weak like you are insinuating. Just my two cents.

In the end, it's really one person's opinion over another's to say that Kagome is "better" or not. Can't we all just agree to that rather than continuing to go around in circles?  

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Tiger: I don't like Bleach, and gave up on it a long time ago. However, I do know what's going on right now and I was a Rukia fan when I was following the series. Yes, she has shown great amounts of courage. I did not insinuate she is weak. I insinuated that she's not this supergirl totally free of cliche that makes Kagome look like wimpy mopwater and that she HAS shown weakness and HAS been a damsel in distress.

I agree, but I also didn't revive a subject that was about twenty posts up after I said I was done discussing. *shrug* This isn't going to end if posters keep digging up old arguments.  

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ETA: Wow this is getting off-topic. Rukia was always my favorite Bleach female, but I feel that while Rukia is pretty emotionally tough, Orihime is far stronger and in a sense more mature. And I was never much of an Orihime fan. I wonder if that along with the Kagome thing might explain what I exemplify as true strength. If we disagree on what strength is (yes there are different types), then it's very true that this argument could just go in circles until the end of time.  

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Rinali? A non-cliche female? No. Rinali is a completely one dimensional character and is very stereotypical as far as shounen lead. She has potential, but it’s squandered by Hoshino’s writing ability. Normally, she’s the kind of character I’d like. I stopped following D Gray Man because I was so exasperated by her inability to write solid characters.
That's just you then, because I thouroughly enjoyed the series. Like I said it's a personal preference. Have fun with your opinions and tastes.

Rukia? Spends an entire arc, over one hundred chapters, trapped in a tower being rescued. Resigned to death, she lets her weakness get the best of her.
Did you not hear me say that she's taken a backseat? I clearly did allude to her current lack of usefullness. However, as far as character goes, she's not miss Mary-Sunshine, she has attitude, we know that she's a kick-ass soul reaper with skill as well as power, and she has a history – struggles from the past. Rukia is capable of thinking and surviving on her own, otherwise she wouldn't have been a soul reaper, she's not as peppy or "Let's smile everyone" like certain other characters.

Akane- Is rescued far more often than Kagome, has far more fits of jealousy, and in fact the entire last arc of the manga is about rescuing her. Her contribution is almost zero during that arc. I LOVE Akane. She is my favorite Ranma character by FAR, but less generic than Kagome she is not. Stronger? Not even close. And life has not been hard for her.
Can Kagome take on all the males in her school based on fighting skill alone? Nope. I admire Akane's physical strength, and attitude, Kagome is just too nice for me. As far as fits go, I have no problem with fits for entertainment purposes. As I said it's all a personal preference. Akane is a girl whose mother died, and because of that she lacks femininity and many traditional female skills, which is heavily frowned down upon. She's a tomboy, rough around the edges, but sweat on the inside, she's tough, gets into fights, and claims to hate boys despite her obvious affections. She's been mistaken for a boy and even called "ugly" by Ranme just because of her lack of feminine quality. You see, unlike Kagome, we get to see how the lack of a mother in her life (which is quite hard for girls) whose not there to teach you how to be a woman has affected her. Life hasn't been hard for her? Look again.

Hikaru? From Rayearth? Nice character, but pretty stereotypical as far as a shoujo lead. Once again, life wasn’t too tough for her before she came.
Actually, I was referring to Hikaru from Princess Nine. You should really check the series out; its pretty good, far stronger female leads than any of Takahashi's work.

Sorry for not being more specific.

Ryoko? Violent and possessive.
Notice the re-occurring role of taste in character. I like the loud, violent, unreserved, ass-kicking types, with attitude. And Ryoko's more than just violent and possessive, or have you not watched all of Tenchi? Ryoko was a space pirate, the most feared out of the entire galaxy, yes she has drawbacks, but fact of the matter is, if she were by herself she could hold her own.

Asuka? I like her, but there’s no denying she’s a b*tch. She’s intended to be.
Hence the appeal, I love the girls who aren't all good. Kagome's just too nice for me.

…How are all those girls better than Kagome?
They have character, character that I don't see Kagome. They have that tough-girl attutude, I-can-do-it-by-myself, bitchy, and an interesting backstory. They suffer from pasts deaths in the family, being teased, etc. that have affected them emotionally or physically which can be seen in their lives, there's more struggle, and no easy way out. Kagome can always go home, but can Akane bring her mother back? These girls have overcame past and present hardships. Can Rukia change the way her family feels about her? Put it this way in an all out brawl, Kagome isn't even competition.

As far as death goes I like to see more than jealousy and pain caused by some boy, I like greed, lust, hatred, and even insanity too some degree. Which is why I like characters like Kikyo and Sesshoumaru, the anti-hero. The good guys without the cliche good-guy characteristics.

Also, having a harsh past is just part of what draws me to a character, they all don't have to be like that.  

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1. Kagome is not peppy and 'let's smile everyone.' She's not even peppy. T___T She's very average as far as her cheerfulness level.
2. I can't believe you're faulting a character for being NICE. That's just bizarre.
3. Asuka's b*tchiness shows her emotional weakness. Rukia's does as well. These characters are closer to damsels than other characters who have a will of steel.
4. Akane's mother is dead. Kagome's father SEEMS to be dead. That's a poor lot, but her life is not near as bad as Kagome's. Being called ugly (why do you think I don't like Ranma hmself much?) and considered unfeminine is debiltating, but it is not the constant mental and physical trauma Kagome is forced to go through. Kagome is immature but you like Akane? Most all of these girls you listed have shown extreme immaturity. Maybe that's how you like your characters, but then why are you arguing Kagome's immaturity? Since it seems maturity is unappealing in some characters for you.
5- Most of the girls you listed, as I said fall into the warrior girl category. Honestly, this is every bit as a cliche as the schoolgirl one. As I said, you like a different archetype. Your 'anti-hero' type is a cliche as much as a 'good guy' type. The point is that you prefer that cliche, but it's still a cliche and it's still at oftentimes generic. These characters are no less cliche than Kagome.   

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Kikyo and Kagome are both important to plot and YES, BOTH of them are, not one or the other, BOTH. Both girls are important and the plot wouldn't have been the same if one or the other didn't exist in it. Yes, Kikyo is dead now but she existed at one point. Don't ask my sources but the ending is near and it's going to have a very dramatic ending. There are going to be some deaths involved, major deaths.

I SAW A POST ABOUT WHO INUYASHA LOVED MORE, AS FOR THAT: Inuyasha loved them both because it's the same soul and as for who'd he choose, this is not meant to offend Kagome fans, but he'd choose Kikyo and he pretty much hinted/said that (or however you want to say it) in the manga when Kikyo died, she was his first love and that's probably why they killed Kikyo because Inuyasha would never let her go. That doesn't mean he didn't/doesn't love Kagome because it's obvious he does, but you got to understand Kikyo was his frist love and they say you never forget your first.  

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Well, I'm not about to dig up old arguments, but as someone watching this play out (and I really haven't been participating in the Kikyo/Kagome/whoever argument), I have to say there are different kinds of maturity and different aspects to being mature, and people who are arguing that one person is more mature than another are really just arguing one side of the coin without acknowledging the other. In other words, both sides have valid arguments. People have different personalities and can express maturity in different ways and still be considered overall mature.

(If you guys are still having fun debating this, then by all means continue, but it sounds like you guys are even growing tired of it. )

Also, I think both of you are off in describing Rukia's character currently, but that's a completely OT argument.  

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Tiger: Well I didn't really describe Rukia's character as of current. I said she's shown a lot of courage, but that's about it.

By current do you mean in the CN broadcast or the current manga? I'm referring to the current manga, but in my initial comment to Karin was referring to the Soul Society arc.  

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Chun-li was one of the earliest female video game protagonists to achieve widespread popularity. While most female characters in games as objectives to be rescued, girlfriends to the main characters, or decoration, Chun-li actually broke the cliche of female heroine's in gaming. She's one wo can go on equal footing with the guys and hold her own. You don't see many female martial artists who are interpol investigators or teamed up with the United States air force to take down an evil organization.

The Dirty Pair were two loose-ended, bad girls, who could caused just as much destruction as hurricane Katrina. Kei isn't your average girly girl who justs like to play nice, no, she has a gun and isn't afraid to use it, aggressive and ready for action. Yuri is a girly girl, but with a twist, she's a flirt, violent when crossed, actually intelligent, and skilled in combat. I never knocked archtypes, but I do like archtypes with a twist, a twist that I never saw in Kagome.

Ryoko, is a space pirate, a female outlaw, from another planet – something you don't see everday. She's loud, violent, aggressive, and loves fighting, whereas Tenchi is the more calm and collect of the two, but not a wimp who always has to rely on Ryoko(something you don't often see in anime). Ryoko's also nice, has a history of crime behind her, is random (you never know what she may do) and a far cry from your generic violent girl. As a matter of fact, three different Universes will back me up on my statement.

Kagome just doesn't have that spice for me. She's nice, compassionate, happy, and hasn't shown any prolonged suffering that wasn't cause by a boy she likes. Where's the real struggle, does she hate her appearence? Does she struggle with self-esteem? Does she struggle with her idenity? Does she suffer from pasts mistakes that have ultimately altered the course of her life? Is she a tough girl whose actually good at cooking and cleaning, a far cry from her character? Is she a boy that turns into a girl due to some crazy spell? No.

It's the quirks that apeal to me, I like interesting quirks. The quiet school-girl that everyone likes whose actually a psychomaniac; or the doctor whose afraid of blood and hates the sight of it. Taking completely different characteristics and contrasting them, putting them into one twisted character. Now, mind you, all of my favorite characters don't have this, but they do have a special quality or oomph that makes me like them – I love Usagi and even Winry. Like I said in the beginning:

ITS A PERSONAL PREFERENCE!

So, I think she's generic and Akane's not, no deal, just me.

1. Kagome is not peppy and ‘let’s smile everyone.’ She’s not even peppy. T___T She’s very average as far as her cheerfulness level.
Opinions…opinions..what a nice word. Sorry to say this, but she is the more cheerful of the group, and to me that's peppy. Whether you like it or not, I think she's Miss Mary Sunshine. We have different views, who knew.
2. I can’t believe you’re faulting a character for being NICE. That’s just bizarre.
You don't seem to get it, it's NOT just being nice, Kagome's too nice, look at the way she's acted with Inuyasha, look at how kind she is in general; compassion is good, but when has she ever put her foot down and caved in to Inuyasha's indecisiveness. I think that it's wonderful that Kagome can feel compassion for just about anyone despite her distaste (hence Kikyo) but it'd be great if she showed more spite just for once, it's only human.
3. Asuka’s b*tchiness shows her emotional weakness. Rukia’s does as well. These characters are closer to damsels than other characters who have a will of steel.
That emotional weakness gives her depth. We're only human, and sometimes we can't handle what gets thrown at us, Asuka represents that. She's the other side that we rarely get to see, the depths of human character, flaw, and life that doesn't get explored nearly as much as it should. Asuka is no princess and a far cry from damsels, Kagomes fits that category much better seeing as this is a Fuedal Fairy Tale.

4. Akane’s mother is dead. Kagome’s father SEEMS to be dead. That’s a poor lot, but her life is not near as bad as Kagome’s. Being called ugly (why do you think I don’t like Ranma hmself much?) and considered unfeminine is debiltating, but it is not the constant mental and physical trauma Kagome is forced to go through. Kagome is immature but you like Akane? Most all of these girls you listed have shown extreme immaturity. Maybe that’s how you like your characters, but then why are you arguing Kagome’s immaturity? Since it seems maturity is unappealing in some characters for you.
Yes, but we SEE Akane's struggles because ot it, we can see how it has affected her. So losing your mother and growing up without that identity in your life isn't as hard as the physical trauma that Kagome doesn't HAVE to go through. What trauma? How has she been drastically altered by what has happened, is she far colder? No, she's still a nice girl. What trauma? Akane grew up with it, Kagome just all of a sudden one day happened into it, she chose her lot, Akane didn't.

And I never said that I hated immature characters, I like it when it's enertaining, I'll even admit that Akane is childish. I even said that Kikyo behave immaturely. If you want to get back to my ealier posts, I argued on Kikyo's behalf because her character as a whole appealed to me, had you paid attention you would see that I like characters with a backstory who have a reason for the way they act. What's Kagome's excuse again?

5- Most of the girls you listed, as I said fall into the warrior girl category. Honestly, this is every bit as a cliche as the schoolgirl one. As I said, you like a different archetype. Your ‘anti-hero’ type is a cliche as much as a ‘good guy’ type. The point is that you prefer that cliche, but it’s still a cliche and it’s still at oftentimes generic. These characters are no less cliche than Kagome.
Their character itself, is not cliche. Sesshoumaru may be an anti-hero type, but is he cliche? No, he's a guys who's dad gave a better toy to his less than worthy baby brother, he's a proud daiyokai with a cold demeanor that was warmed by a little girl (not a love interest). Kikyo was a priestess who was supposed to live a pure, untainted life, the twist? She dies a tragic death, was revived as a corpse, and lived as pure hatred, the complete opposite of what she aspired to be. They have quirks that make them unique, that sets them far from your average cliche. Yes, they fall into a category, a class, a type, but that doesn't make them cliche. They have contrast, depth, background, conflict, and different attributes that can't be attested to each other.

Is Spike your average cool-guy, bounty hunter? No, he's unique, he's Spike, there's other things about him that sets him apart from the rest.  

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Haro: Current manga. She overcame her guilt over Kaien to defeat that Arrancar. That took a lot for her to do that.

Really my remarks are directed more at the other posters than you because I know you're not digging up old arguments, but you're defending yourself to posters who are. Also, although I disagree with you about Rukia being bitchy (in your comparison to Asuka), I more disagree with Karin's assertion that she's taken a backseat of late. Of course, she will be secondary to the male hero in a shounen manga — that's par for the course for shounen — but after several of the most recent manga chapters focused on her, she's not completely in the background either.  

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I really don't want to get into an argument here, but Sesshomaru also falls into a "cliche". He's the silent, strong bishounen, like Byakuya in Bleach. They both play on their own teams, even seeming like bad guys at first. Of course, they have differences, too — otherwise RT could sue KT for plagiarism — but just pointing out that they fit the same type.

Haro: Bleach is my second big, long-running series that I follow. This week has been unusual in that I've gotten my Bleach fix (at least part of it) before my IY fix. The IY scans are slow this week, while the latest Bleach TV sub (123) came out a day early. So I'm anxious. Hopefully the Bleach manga will not be delayed either later this week.  

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Also to further elaborate on the cliche/type thing. It seems you won't consider a character cliche if you really like them (like Karin with Sesshoumaru). If you don't like them, you'll probably more likely see them as cliched or stereotyped. Just an observation. There are probably characters that are by consensus opinion less stereotyped than others, but I don't really see any anime/manga character as not fitting into a particular type at all.  

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Yahoo! Scripts out. That means scans will be out soon.  

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I acknowledge that some of these females are far better on the battlefield than Kagome, and I would not ever argue against that. But not everyone can be a warrior, and judging a character as less of a cliche because they aren't one is unfair. Kagome can't always hold her own in battle because that's not how she was raised. Akane is a martial artist due to her upbringing. Kagome's not, but holds her own in battle despite no experience. And actually she did have a chance at a mothering figure in Kasumi, it's just that she's none too good at those girly things. Which is okay and actually very endearing- but it's not really just the fault of her mother being deceased.

Maybe Kagome doesn't show emotional trauma because she's just that strong? Even IY comments in marvel of her strength. She has shown spite but overcomes it, because she's tough enough to do so. Her not letting these things get to her doesn't make her less human, it makes her less 'average' as she's been proposed to be.

She does has self-esteem issues and insecurities. Big ones. And major identity issues- which she mostly overcomes. While her feelings for InuYasha do play into some of these, that's hardly all there is to it. Her insecurities are far more deeply rooted than just 'does he like me?' Does he like me isn't even a part of it. Her being the most upbeat member of her group doesn't mean much considering how downbeat most of them are. She's certainly far less upbeat than her perky and enthusiastic friends.

As for Sesshoumaru, actually it's very common for that kind of hardened by life character to gain a child (not a romantic interest) to travel with that teaches them about life and love. Claymore, Seirei no Moribito, Black Cat, Bleach, Monster, Fist of the North Star, Saiyuki, etc. and it's plenty common in Western films as well (Monsters Inc. anyone?). This is the reason I'm not that interested in Sess and Rin. I've seen the story many times before.

And I admit Kikyou's a very original character, not a cliche so I won't debate that. But she's not more original than the main cast.

I also said it's a personal preference. O.o; You don't need to reiterate it.  

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Doh! They're up already!  

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Also I agree with Tiger that it seems like if you're not a fan of a character, they become a cliche to you. There's not a single character in this argument that I've referred to directly as cliche, outside Rinali. And my problem with her is in the author's ability to flesh people out and less her character. I feel the author does not have the talent as of right now to create multi-dimensional characters which frustrated me as I did like a lot of the character 'bases,' Rinali being one of them. And some have been brought up that I'm not a fan of. It's really not fair to ignore the few cliches in one character (Kagome) and then praise other characters even though they fall into some cliches as well.  

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Also to further elaborate on the cliche/type thing. It seems you won’t consider a character cliche if you really like them (like Karin with Sesshoumaru). If you don’t like them, you’ll probably more likely see them as cliched or stereotyped. Just an observation. There are probably characters that are by consensus opinion less stereotyped than others, but I don’t really see any anime/manga character as not fitting into a particular type at all.
No, that's not the case, I don't like Guts from Beserk, but is he cliche? No, Is Sai (Naruto)? No, do I like him? No. I do like some cliche characters, I even admitted to liking Usagi, Minako, and Chibi Usagi from Sailormoon. Look at the last part of my statement, I said despite fitting into some category or type (which is for all characters) it's the character itself that I go for. Yes, I do utterly despise the damsel-in-distress type, and cliches are rather unappealing, but a good character is a good character, and I don't consider Kagome a good character. Inuyasha and Naruto are both large overly done characters with their own intersting quirks, and there lies the appeal. Kagome is just unappealing to me, but I'm not going to bash her for it. Yes, I find her cliche which gives me a negative outlook, that's one attribute of characters that I tend to dislike, but I have many likes and dislikes so my tastes can't be classed to one.

Sonic? Cliche, love him to death.
Shippou? Cute, cliche, absolutely adore him.
Yusuke? Bad-ass, gotta love him.
Goku? Generic shounen lead, love him as well.
Naruto? Who isn't, can't say that I hate him.
Kakashi? Mystery, been there done that, lbut you have to love the guy.

I really don’t want to get into an argument here, but Sesshomaru also falls into a “cliche”. He’s the silent, strong bishounen, like Byakuya in Bleach. They both play on their own teams, even seeming like bad guys at first. Of course, they have differences, too — otherwise RT could sue KT for plagiarism — but just pointing out that they fit the same type.
He has other characteristics that give him appeal, from his development, to his mysterious compassion for Rin (who isn't a love interest), to his history and lineage. They fit the same type, because they can be classed in the same category, as I have said, but their different. No non-cliche character will have their own category, otherwise that'd make classifying them way too hard. It's the character itself, the character, from everything they do and think.

There it goes…personal preferences again.  

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To be a damsel in distress type, wouldn't you need to actually act distressed? Kagome holds her own when she's captured and keeps her head on straight. When the Thunder brothers capture her for example, she uses her wits to save herself- completely calm even when Hiten kills someone right in front of her. When Mukotsu has her, despite being poisoned she tries her hardest to remove his shard. Never once (in the manga) is she captured or in severe danger, just sitting there listlessly whimpering InuYasha's name as she laments her life. The closest is when baby Hakudoushi tries to search her heart, and to their great frustration they could not break her. She keeps her spunk, she keeps her guts. Plus, she's rarely captured anyway.  

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I acknowledge that some of these females are far better on the battlefield than Kagome, and I would not ever argue against that. But not everyone can be a warrior, and judging a character as less of a cliche because they aren’t one is unfair. Kagome can’t always hold her own in battle because that’s not how she was raised. Akane is a martial artist due to her upbringing. Kagome’s not, but holds her own in battle despite no experience. And actually she did have a chance at a mothering figure in Kasumi, it’s just that she’s none too good at those girly things. Which is okay and actually very endearing- but it’s not really just the fault of her mother being deceased.
I did say that I like kick-ass, bad attitude, tough girls, therefore it's only natural for me to like Akane more than Kagome and compare her skill to lack of experience and upringing. I like characters that are good on the battlefield. And I did admit that Akane isn't the most original character, but I don't judge on cliches alone, there are other factors like the character itself, which I just may not like.

Maybe Kagome doesn’t show emotional trauma because she’s just that strong? Even IY comments in marvel of her strength. She has shown spite but overcomes it, because she’s tough enough to do so. Her not letting these things get to her doesn’t make her less human, it makes her less ‘average’ as she’s been proposed to be.
Or maye her struggles just aren't as great. What true struggle? Inuyasha and Kikyo, that got old all too quickly. We never got to see much that went past that or got to go in any deeper. Kagome's less 'average' strength has been shown to be avarage for that of many female leads, just look at Usagi and how much she can handle.

I didn't accuse her of being less human, my comment was in reference to Asuka's lack of strength which was perfectly human.

She does has self-esteem issues and insecurities. Big ones. And major identity issues- which she mostly overcomes. While her feelings for InuYasha do play into some of these, that’s hardly all there is to it. Her insecurities are far more deeply rooted than just ‘does he like me?’ Does he like me isn’t even a part of it. Her being the most upbeat member of her group doesn’t mean much considering how downbeat most of them are. She’s certainly far less upbeat than her perky and enthusiastic friends.
She isn't any less upbeat than her friends, Kagome always looks on the bright side, is that a flaw? No, it's just apart of her character. Is her life slowly being dwindled away by a whole in her hand? Did she witness her little brother kill her whole entire family and then watch him live as a puppet manipulated by some wicked demon? Is she a hanyo that has been completely rejected by others (save a few), cast down and frowned upon just because of what he is? Or is she a tragic priestess that lived as a corpse? No, Kagome has reasons to be way more upbeat. She is way more upbeat.

As for Sesshoumaru, actually it’s very common for that kind of hardened by life character to gain a child (not a romantic interest) to travel with that teaches them about life and love. Claymore, Seirei no Moribito, Black Cat, Bleach, Monster, Fist of the North Star, Saiyuki, etc. and it’s plenty common in Western films as well (Monsters Inc. anyone?). This is the reason I’m not that interested in Sess and Rin. I’ve seen the story many times before.
Sesshoumaru himself is an intersting and intriguing character. He's nothing like Mike or Sully from Monsters Inc., as I've said it's his character itself as well, yes Rin is cute and plays a vital role, but as far as Sesshoumaru goes, he's his own.

And I admit Kikyou’s a very original character, not a cliche so I won’t debate that. But she’s not more original than the main cast.
To me she is, which I've already said. The main cast itself just seems all to generic to me, but hey I do like some one them. Inuyasha's a likeable scoundrel.

I also said it’s a personal preference. O.o; You don’t need to reiterate it.
Just wanted to make things clear, it seemed as though you took what I said to heart and I didn't want that to happen. I wanted to be clear that I wasn't trying to say it as fact, but rather opinion. Sorry for the misconceptions. I though that if I at least said that, you wouldn't get as angry over my distaste for Kagome's character.  

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I also did notice that all your 'cliched' characters, even the ones you like, are good guys and male (except for the Sailor Moon girls). Being a hero doesn't make you more prone to cliche, but I think fandom has taken in this idea that it does because they enjoy harping on the good guys more. Also, they're far more willing to dislike female characters on the grounds of cliche than males. (And I REALLY don't want to argue this, but I don't think IY is cliche personally. However, Goku from DB/Z is definitely not. The reason he's not cliche that he originated that character type, every other like him came after and followed in Toriyama's footsteps.)  

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Her troubles aren't just InuYasha and Kikyou. The Kikyou issue comes down to far more than their relationship with InuYasha. It's a deep issue regarding her personal confidence in her abilities, the fact that Kikyou treats her like a lesser being and she has to realize she's not, the fact that she is constantly being compared and even belittled in comparison to her past incarnation, etc. None of that has to do with romance. And don't forget she has the EXTREME guilt of accidentally starting this whole thing by shattering the jewel. At first that didn't sink in because she didn't understand what a big deal it was, but it had by a few volumes in. Yeah she has more reasons to be upbeat than having like her whole family killed, you're right. But she has A LOT to be depressed about, far more than any normal person.

Kagome is far less upbeat than her friends, in the manga at least. They sit around talking about boys and she just kind of sits there not even much caring. When she acts overly peppy to hide her emotions, her friends are freaked out by it. They turn into squealy fangirls over Houjo and Kagome's relationship with InuYasha. Kagome's never done any of that. I love her friends. They're hilarious. But Kagome actually seems a bit out of place amongst them.

Yeah I realize they're nothing alike. But the 'child showing a grown adult the meaning of love and life' is what I was referring to. As that's one of my favorite movies, it's the first one that came to mind. It really is a very common theme in American film. Even movies like "The Sixth Sense," which is horror, use it as a focal point. Sess is also not like Kenzo Tenma from "Monster," who is if anything too kind. But the child relationship serves the same purpose.

But… Mike & Sully >> Sesshoumaru hardcore.

Pixar is the only creator/company that has never let me down. They're like my personal gods. xp  

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Frack! When did I say that being a hero makes you cliche? Villains are also the most cliched and played-out thing there is. Look at Naraku? Your sadistic bad-guy who didn't get his way, and is just an eveil bastard.

I just listed some well-known cliches to get my point across, you shouldn't have looked into it that much.

So you want me to list all the cliche characters that I like that are female?

Okay:
Ayaka
Sasami
Kasumi (pokemon)
Sakura
Temari
Sakura (cardcaptors)
Hitaru
Chi-Chi
Bulma
Yomiko
The girls from Urasei Yatsura
The girls from Mason Ikkouku
The girls from SUPAGAL!Ran Kotobuki
…and the list goes on.

To be a damsel in distress type, wouldn’t you need to actually act distressed? Kagome holds her own when she’s captured and keeps her head on straight. When the Thunder brothers capture her for example, she uses her wits to save herself- completely calm even when Hiten kills someone right in front of her. When Mukotsu has her, despite being poisoned she tries her hardest to remove his shard. Never once (in the manga) is she captured or in severe danger, just sitting there listlessly whimpering InuYasha’s name as she laments her life. The closest is when baby Hakudoushi tries to search her heart, and to their great frustration they could not break her. She keeps her spunk, she keeps her guts. Plus, she’s rarely captured anyway.
You really must be a Kagome fan.

Distress is a state of adversity, not just being captured. Inuyasha is either always there, has been there, will be there, or there's someone in his place (koga, shippou, etc.). As far as I'm concerned she's never had to be too worried because she's always had faith in Inuyasha and his strength, she always has something to rely on. Yes, she's never been in any severe danger, but unless Inuyasha, Miroku, Koga, and Sango get offed, Kagome will never be in any real danger. I never said that she was completely helpless, or pathetic.

And yes, I agree that her anime counterpart didn't help at all in shaping her character.  

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Her troubles aren’t just InuYasha and Kikyou. The Kikyou issue comes down to far more than their relationship with InuYasha. It’s a deep issue regarding her personal confidence in her abilities, the fact that Kikyou treats her like a lesser being and she has to realize she’s not, the fact that she is constantly being compared and even belittled in comparison to her past incarnation, etc. None of that has to do with romance. And don’t forget she has the EXTREME guilt of accidentally starting this whole thing by shattering the jewel. At first that didn’t sink in because she didn’t understand what a big deal it was, but it had by a few volumes in. Yeah she has more reasons to be upbeat than having like her whole family killed, you’re right. But she has A LOT to be depressed about, far more than any normal person.
Do we get to see that more than her angst over who Inuyasha likes more? No, not really. When Kikyo belittled her it did have to do with Inuyasha, they both loved him to some extent, and Kagome just couldn't understand why Inuyasha would protect Kikyo despite what she had done to her. It can always be traced back to Inuyasha and his feelings in some way. As far as guilt goes over shattering the jewel, yes, she does feel guilty, but what do we get more of? Troubles over Inuyasha, or troubles over other things? That's what I'm getting at, Inuyasha just seems to be her main problem that's focussed on, which in my opinion belittlers her character even more and subtracts depth.

Kagome is far less upbeat than her friends, in the manga at least. They sit around talking about boys and she just kind of sits there not even much caring. When she acts overly peppy to hide her emotions, her friends are freaked out by it. They turn into squealy fangirls over Houjo and Kagome’s relationship with InuYasha. Kagome’s never done any of that. I love her friends. They’re hilarious. But Kagome actually seems a bit out of place amongst them.
I wasn't really referring to them, but since they live different lives wouldn't that make them different in behavior – just like Kikyo and Kagome. Kagome's out-of-place period, her struggles are far less than Inuyasha's, Sango's, and Miroku's but they are also more than her future friends (didn't feel like listing them). However, she can always escape both, something that the others are incapable of.

Yeah I realize they’re nothing alike. But the ‘child showing a grown adult the meaning of love and life’ is what I was referring to. As that’s one of my favorite movies, it’s the first one that came to mind. It really is a very common theme in American film. Even movies like “The Sixth Sense,” which is horror, use it as a focal point. Sess is also not like Kenzo Tenma from “Monster,” who is if anything too kind. But the child relationship serves the same purpose.
Of course it doesn, but if I read Inuyasha just for the relationships then…yeah I like the character itself.

But… Mike & Sully >> Sesshoumaru hardcore.

Pixar is the only creator/company that has never let me down. They’re like my personal gods. xp
I wholeheartedly agree. Sesshoumaru is loveable, but Mike is way more cuddly.

Who doesn't like "Kitty" XD  

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Koga's not even around anymore, so I don't know why you're bringing him into the argument, but I do get your point.  

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He's someone who's rescued her in the past. He's someone who protected her, he's someone that she could rely on. Kikyo's dead, but she was a past character. :/  

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Well, Haro as fun as this is, I must say that we have to stop at some point. I'm sure that you're tired of this and you don't really feel like debating so…

*offers to shake hands* We agree to..well…I don't know really, but let's agree to something. XD

Finish replying to whatever I've said, get your response out and let's just end this. I usually like to have the last word, but it doesn't really matter in this case. Our discussion isn't going anywhere, and we've made our points and stances clear. Since you already said that you don't feel like debating, I'll just leave it alone.  

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Anonymous: I don't agree that a lot of those characters are cliche (especially Kyoko, she's really one of a kind, and you'll never find another girl like Ran from UY), but I won't debate. It just seems to be a general list of female protagonists, but eh.

Kagome knows she's on the brink of death at all times. She cannot always rely on others, nor they on her. That's just unrealistic. There have been several times in which they could not rescue her. She is always in real danger. By that logic none of the Inu-tachi is ever in real danger, because there's always someone there to rescue them. After all, it's not as if they will only rescue Kagome when she's in danger. In situations like the Tsubaki arc, the only person who could save Kagome was herself. InuYasha couldn't do a thing.

Karin: You seemed to want characters to have real and somewhat frivilous worries. For example, you listed 'worrying about your appearance.' Kagome's insecurities about her love life, if they are as frivilous as they seem to come across to you, shouldn't subtract depth than I think. They add it. It doesn't always come down to InuYasha. A lot of the arcs that have shaped Kagome, like the Tsubaki arc for example, IY is there but it's not her feelings for him that are causing her insecurities. It's the fact that she feels that as a miko she cannot match up to Kikyou, which she proves to be incorrect. Even recently she showed a bit of insecurity over her powers. "I'm sorry I can't do this as well as Kikyou," when she purified Kohaku's shard. When she saved Kikyou from the pool, it did not have anything to do with IY. When she broke the jewel and subsequently realized the bad things she had accidentally created because of it, her turmoil over it had nothing to do with IY. Also, she recently held enormous guilt over not being able to save Kikyou's life. Kagome honestly felt it was her fault, and it wasn't relayed to her that she had saved Kikyou's soul so she was just left thinking she failed. That also has nothing to do with InuYasha. Call me crazy, but Kagome suffered as much from Kikyou's death as InuYasha did. There are many points at which Kagome has expressed trepidation and self-esteem issues over non-romantic elements of her life. But also, a lot of Kikyou's angst issues come down to InuYasha as well.

I'm okay with ending this here as well. *shakes hands*

At least we agree on the huggableness of Mike and Sully. XDD  

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I just like characters with different qualities, a mixture of both frivolous to extremely complex. What subtracts from depth is a characters struggles that are overshadowed by a lesser one. Yes, I'm just weird like that.

However, now that you've gotten your voice in, its done. I never like for these types of things to end without the other party getting a chance to reply.  

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Hmmm, sure are a lot of comments this week.  

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People have plenty to talk about. They're excited.  

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Funny how everytime you discuss Inuyasha, the debate eventually turns to a Kikyo vs. Kagome one……  

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What's done is done, there's no need to try and start something else, especially if it may start a potential conflict.  

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I don't know if there are more Kag or Kik fans out there, but they never miss a chance to fight about it and all because Inuyasha can't make up his bloody mind. Yeah, I know it's hard for him blah, blah, blah…  

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Nina: I didn't even intend for this to be a Kik vs. Kag thing. I don't understand why people assume everytime these two girls are being discussed it's their 'fans fighting over who is better.' I'm personally not of the opinion that InuYasha can't make up his mind, and find the idea of the 'choice' in that manner (as in who he wants to romantically be with) to be fanon or at least anime-based, so that's completely irrelevant for me.

But yes, what's done is done.  

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Haro, are you saying that Inuyasha knows who he wants? But, fine, if you think it's done then nevermind.  

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Haro, are you saying that Inuyasha knows who he wants?

Nina: Yes, absolutely.  

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Then why was he always hung up on Kikyo?(I imagine you ment he wants Kagome)  

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Kikyou was Inuyasha's first time at dealing with the concept of love — even if what they had wasn't "real" love. Most people don't ever forget — or want to forget — their first love. I still have dreams of mine even though I haven't seen him in 11 years. Plus, there's all that guilt — even if he didn't do the actual killing — he feels after learning the truth behind Kikyou's death

He wasn't ever really "pining away" for Kikyou; he was mourning what happened and what might have been. His feelings are pretty damn normal for a guy.  

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Yeah, guys are a lot more emotional than girls when it comes to "breakin up" or being rejected by a girl they actually like/love. You'd be really surprised at how sensitive they are. It's actually quite adorable. :p

But, yes, I wholeheartledly agree with Haro.  

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So, you think he can move on now and be with Kagome?  

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So, you think he can move on now and be with Kagome?

Nina: He already has. There are a few things holding them down from being in a full fledged relationship right now (although they're a lot more 'in one' than people seem to give credit for- they openly consider each other their significant others at times). Mainly Naraku and of course the fact that RT can't have them confess until the end because that's just now how stories like this work. But Kikyou is not one of these things.  

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*not how stories.  

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OK, thanks for clearing it up.  

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Hi im lakaya phillips and i love inuyasha chapter one was thrilling when inuyasha made love to kagoma yall should make a video out of that and give in to the people who made inuyasha so they can publish it into a whole mini show or even a sires that be alsame then yall can make lots of money .
                         
Love Lakaya Phillips Inuyaha number one fan   

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If you want to talk go to yahoo and look up abbiesexy2u or Lakaya on ieeme.com  

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